to think you can't be a nice person if you marry a sh*t one?

[aplateandaspoon]

I know this couple, let's call her Lily who is married to Jack. I know Jack much better than I know Lily. We are not friends per se, but we see each other often as we have friends in common. I also know Jack's family very well.

Lily seems to be the most adorable lovely person, always polite and smily. But Jack is an absolute dickhead, he treats anyone in the service industry (waiters, cleaners, etc...) like they are beneath him and he is rude to them. He makes awful comments to people he knows like "oh you better get married soon otherwise people will assume you are gay"... things like that.

I know Jack's family pretty well, and I know he treats his mum really badly. He snaps at her and the way sometimes he speaks to her is shocking. Once he even let slip that he can't stand her but she helps them with childcare and with rent so he has to put up with her otherwise they will lose the money.

So going back to Lily... my question is, how can a "good" person marry someone so awful? I just think she cannot be a good person at all. If my partner spoke to people like Jack does, that would be a dealbreaker for me.

I've never tried to engage with Lily much, other than polite pleasantries, cause I don't want a relationship with them (mainly Jack) but part of me also cannot believe she is a genuinely nice person if she married someone like Jack.

So my question is, can who chooses to be partners with someone so awful be a genuinely nice person?

There is a lot to unpack.

supposing he is actually not a nice person. There is a good chance she is being abused and doesn’t know how to get out. She may have even grown up in a similar dynamic and doesn’t recognize her own situation.

it is also possible that you don’t know the real man. Some people are perceived as rude or standoffish when you have a surface level relationship, but they are just not neurotypical.

Absolutely this. May be he stared all nice then the abuse has groomed her. Or she has a broken man-o-meter. We are not mirror images of our partners

I think nice , kind ,obliging people are more likely to end up with a dickhead. They are more likely to let poor behaviour go and look for the good.

Looking at it from a different perspective, from my research ( non scientific/ anecdotal / personal etc) these unpleasant people tend to hone in on good/ nice/ empathetic people to marry.

These good people fill the gaps that the other person doesn’t have. If you look up narcissism you’ll find that’s exactly what they do.

It could be seen as the good cop/ bad cop situation but it is far more nuanced than that.

Id be keeping a close eye on Lily… she may need you.

Billie Piper married Lawrence Fox 🤷‍♀️

I could be Lily. I hope I am not too bad a person. I try to be polite. I am married to a man who changed. Until we had kids he was kind, easy going, got on with my family the lot. After having kid s he changed and now acts similar to your description. He is often rude in restaurants to the staff. I curl up and die a little inside every time. I hate it. But if I say anything he will kick off at me and the kids and we will suffer for hours or days after.

He has become a very angry man except with his friends and family who he is sweetness and light to. He can change in a moment.

it is not always easy or straightforward to leave. He blames me for his moods and says I am the bad person. But really I don’t think I am that bad and I do try to always be polite. In fact people have commented on it.

so please be nice to Lily and give her the benefits of the doubt.

I guess I see choosing a partner the same as choosing your friends, you usually surround yourself with people who share similar values with you. I could never fall in love with a homophobe, I would never be friends with one either.

I don’t think it’s that easy, or black and white.
I was reading some other thread about being friends with someone you know is cheating.
And I can’t see why I would stop being friends, it’s not my place to impose my
values/morals/worldviews onto other.
For example, I believe porn/sex industry abhorrent, totally anti-women, one has to be vile/ misogynystic person to choose to watch/pay/whatever for it.
Now, if I demanded that all my friends should abide by my standards, would I even have any friends?

So, no, I don’t think someone is a horrible person just for the company they keep.
I mean, am I a horrible person for having a friends who do watch anti-women propaganda (porn)? Am I?

I think @Catastrophejane makes a very old point about being less objective about intimate partners.

Love makes most people a little bit stupid at times, especially at the beginning. Love also overrides logic at times too. It's a wonderful but strange thing.

That can only be true to an extent though. I'm assuming that there is a line of tolerable behaviour and you would ditch a friend if for example they were racist, violent, etc. I think everyone is accountable to those around them to some extent. That's how society self polices. I think if more people challenged their friends on unacceptable towards their partners the world would be a better place. Instead most turn a blind eye or phase those people out.

Yup! 😢

Does he drink a lot? Sounds so familiar 😕

I also wouldn't assume someone being 'nice' e.g. tipping waiters doesn't mean they aren't abusive/neglectful privately. A lot of these actions are performative and mean nothing privately. Sheep/Wolf etc.

Exactly. And sometimes puerile are shy are bumbling or awkward. That night just be their personality. Someone can be charasmatic but in private be rather cruel. I've seen it with a friend, it's quite distressing.

I've known several couples where one partner has started fine but become progressively horrible, including to their lovely other half. Thankfully the lovely partner has usually eventually broken things off, but way past the point where it was obvious to outsiders that the person they were with was awful. I could easily see someone getting stuck on such a relationship long-term and indeed know one case where that's happened.

Well, I think you're being unreasonable to judge her. But I have to say I know 4 or 5 women who I get on really well with - they are really laid back and easy going and funny and quirky and witty with a lovely, sweet personality.

Yet their husbands/partners are just really grumpy and miserable and ignorant and won't even look you in the eye, let alone say hello to you. They are incredibly difficult to make any conversation with, and give one word answers or just walk off before you can say hello.

It's not always men, but is more than women IME. I've met quite a number of people over the years... sometimes it's been a really nice man, and he's got a really horrible grumpy wife or girlfriend, and I really, really can't fathom why they're together. I get on so well with one and the other one is just impossible to talk to, or actually really unpleasant and grumpy. Does make you wonder why people are together when they're so different.

They reel you in with charm, kill you with kindness. Often times, people like this are seeking a super lovely partner who will tolerate their shit when they finally do The Big Reveal: Surprise! I’m a Mega Asshole!

By that time, you’re well in and you excuse the bad behaviour and accept love’s crumbs as good enough because in truth, you’re worn down. So you tell yourself: It’ll get better/he’ll be happier again when the baby sleeps through the night, when we move, when I go back to work, when he gets his long anticipated promotion, when our eldest gets through GCSEs, when we go on holiday, when this happens, when that happens, everything will go back to what it never really was in the first place .

Was going to say similar. Also, he may have been charming and ‘good’ when they first met and once she was committed, then his horrible side came out. She’s probably inwardly very conflicted by his horrible behaviour.