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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think you can't be a nice person if you marry a sh*t one?

92 replies

aplateandaspoon · 04/04/2023 09:39

I know this couple, let's call her Lily who is married to Jack. I know Jack much better than I know Lily. We are not friends per se, but we see each other often as we have friends in common. I also know Jack's family very well.

Lily seems to be the most adorable lovely person, always polite and smily. But Jack is an absolute dickhead, he treats anyone in the service industry (waiters, cleaners, etc...) like they are beneath him and he is rude to them. He makes awful comments to people he knows like "oh you better get married soon otherwise people will assume you are gay"... things like that.

I know Jack's family pretty well, and I know he treats his mum really badly. He snaps at her and the way sometimes he speaks to her is shocking. Once he even let slip that he can't stand her but she helps them with childcare and with rent so he has to put up with her otherwise they will lose the money.

So going back to Lily... my question is, how can a "good" person marry someone so awful? I just think she cannot be a good person at all. If my partner spoke to people like Jack does, that would be a dealbreaker for me.

I've never tried to engage with Lily much, other than polite pleasantries, cause I don't want a relationship with them (mainly Jack) but part of me also cannot believe she is a genuinely nice person if she married someone like Jack.

So my question is, can who chooses to be partners with someone so awful be a genuinely nice person?

OP posts:
NeverDropYourMooncup · 04/04/2023 12:08

If she grew up being abused and neglected, he won't seem as bad as her parent(s).

One of my exes was a terrible human being - but at the time, he at least pretended to quite like me occasionally, which is a damn sight more than my mother ever did. The only time I was ever touched as a child was when I was being hit. But he didn't do that. He could be affectionate. He wanted to touch me, spend time with me, talk, laugh, be together. So he never seemed as bad, not when his behaviour escalated, not when he began revealing the nastier side of his personality, right up to and including the day when he nearly killed me.

Yup, despite the fact that he was a horrible, nasty person, I still felt more special, more loved by him than I ever was as a child. Even when he turned and demonised me, the strength of his anger towards me counted for more than the outright absence of feeling, affection or anything resembling love throughout my childhood. Because at least he felt something.

That doesn't make me a shitty person. I'm free to actually be me with DP, who is fundamentally a good, kind, smart, sweet and funny man who doesn't see trying to be a fundamentally decent human being as a sign of weakness and I'm utterly safe with him - but I wasn't bad to begin with.

Whattt44 · 04/04/2023 12:12

Abusers don't show their hand immediately, they wait until they have their victim hooked and then it starts .
Why are you friends with him, doesn't that make you a horrible person?

IAmTheWalrus85 · 04/04/2023 12:15

Well, my mum is kind and lovely and my father is an absolute dickhead.

In her case I think it was crippingly low self-esteem and no decent male role models when choosing a husband - she just thought (and still thinks) that’s how men behave and what you have to tolerate.

purplecorkheart · 04/04/2023 12:18

I know a few couples like this and at the start of the relationship the horrible partner was lovely, charming etc. It was only after the marriage that their true colours started to appear.

Fairislefandango · 04/04/2023 12:21

No, she isn’t. OP said ’I just think she cannot be a good person at all.’

This is making Lily responsible for Jack’s behaviour.

No it isn't. What do you think 'being responsible for' means? If someone is responsible for an accident, it means they caused it. If a parent is responsible for their child's bad upbringing, it's because the parent brought the child up badly. Suggesting that Lily is a bad person because she's choosing to be with a bad man is not the same at a as saying that Lily is responsible for his badness. She is not making him be bad. It simply means she's responsible for her own poor choice of partner.

Ktime · 04/04/2023 12:27

Fairislefandango · 04/04/2023 12:21

No, she isn’t. OP said ’I just think she cannot be a good person at all.’

This is making Lily responsible for Jack’s behaviour.

No it isn't. What do you think 'being responsible for' means? If someone is responsible for an accident, it means they caused it. If a parent is responsible for their child's bad upbringing, it's because the parent brought the child up badly. Suggesting that Lily is a bad person because she's choosing to be with a bad man is not the same at a as saying that Lily is responsible for his badness. She is not making him be bad. It simply means she's responsible for her own poor choice of partner.

So first you said The OP is only holding Lily responsible for staying in a relationship with someone like Jack, not holding her responsible for the fact that Jack's a bad person.

At least you admit that OP is saying Lily is a bad person.

When OP says ‘If my partner spoke to people like Jack does, that would be a dealbreaker for me.’, the inference is that she has never seen Lily pull up Jack on his behaviour. For people like you, it’s always the woman’s responsibility to keep her husband in check.

So yes, you are holding Lily responsible for Jack, just like OP.

KarmaStar · 04/04/2023 12:37

Is this a real post or a bait thread from a trainee journo of a low rate publisher ?
Because it is extremely unwise to judge everybody who is with a person who is not seen as 'nice' as being unpleasant or fake as well.
Ok have outlined excellent reasons and there are many more.
It is also insulting.

IAteAllTheTomatoes · 04/04/2023 12:42

Almost every decent friend I have who married/divorced an asshole married a carbon copy of their equally asshole father.

What about people in DV relationship? I'm pretty certain most of trm are decent people being abused by assholes. The abuse is zero reflection on them.

Notbeinfunnehbut · 04/04/2023 12:43

I agree with you op because
people in toxic or abusive marriages can also be people who will ignore others bad behaviour or pretend to be nicer than they are

can be both at the same time

Mumoftwoinprimary · 04/04/2023 13:07

I think that - once invested - it would be difficult to leave a man like that.

QueenBeaver · 04/04/2023 13:11

My ex-husband was an awful man. A cheat, a liar, a womaniser. I’m none of those things, I was just young and infatuated by him. For anyone to think that I’m a ‘bad person’ is nasty and frankly ridiculous. Anyway, some of the nastiest people can put on a real show of being nice and to their supposed loved one(s) they keep them hanging on so they think they’ll change. They never do.

I’m with someone lovely now.

JKTrolling · 04/04/2023 13:40

This scenario is very common. Women pretending to be nice while hiding behind an absolute dick of a man. It doesn’t wash with me any more. Leave him if you think you’re such a good person.

TankFlyBossW4lk · 04/04/2023 13:43

I'm totally with you, OP. It's an extension of, "Show me who your friends are, I'll tell you who you are. "

If you put up with this, there's a certain amount of acceptance of the behaviour. Worse if you feel that the person is marriage material.

Antiquiteas · 04/04/2023 13:46

The barely internalised misogyny on this thread is as grim as ever.

mewkins · 04/04/2023 17:28

TankFlyBossW4lk · 04/04/2023 13:43

I'm totally with you, OP. It's an extension of, "Show me who your friends are, I'll tell you who you are. "

If you put up with this, there's a certain amount of acceptance of the behaviour. Worse if you feel that the person is marriage material.

But OP's friends are friends with this man. What does that say about THEM?

2bazookas · 04/04/2023 18:09

As you know Jacks family well, why not ask them ?
Or since Jack is quite disinhibited, just ask him.

On second thoughts, is it possible Lily is autistic but masks all the tie, Jack is autistic too and thats their bond. Mutual understanding and acceptance.

Thepeopleversuswork · 04/04/2023 18:16

I have known many scenarios where a genuinely lovely person is with an absolute cunt.

As others have said there are many reasons why people (and particularly women) might stay with such a person.

In no particular order:

  • Because the person is similar to their opposite sex parent and it’s what was modelled to them as a child
  • Low self esteem and thinking they can’t do better
  • Sex
  • They get something from the horrible partner that others don’t get
  • Trapped financially or a major financial incentive to remain in the relationship
  • Shared children

It’s not rocket science. People are different and have wildly different emotional needs.

LlynTegid · 04/04/2023 18:17

Some people can be fooled until someone shows their true colours. Blame the unpleasant man (or woman where it occurs) not their victim.

Prettybutdumb · 04/04/2023 18:27

My sister is ‘Lily’. She married the most despicable man on earth. Cheater, gambler, super weird porn addicted (think animals), hit on me when I was a teen (asleep in my bed) the moment they got back from their honeymoon. She is stunning, kind, sweet, great with kids, an AMAZING chef, keeps a house like a professional hotel manager. We all thought she was going to marry the best man in the world to match her aura, unfortunately she likes an asshole in charge. She’s also a fanatic religious person and an absolute target for any weird cult / conspiracy/ bitcoin etc. It’s bizarre and heartbreaking but she’s still somehow a great person. Deep down.

YakobRiceMoorgan · 04/04/2023 18:30

It's much more complex and nuanced than being 'nice' or not. People are usually a product of generational patterns. I don't think vilifying and shaming people works be it addicts or parents who stay with abusive partners, Lily would have enough guilt and Lily herself is likely a product of being abused some way or another. Get off your high horse.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 04/04/2023 18:36

yes treating those you deem 'beneath you' is a crappy piece of behaviour and would be a complete dealbreaker for me. I, however, am not particularly nice. "Nice" women like my mum and aunties put up with more than you can imagine from men, because they've been taught its not their place to judge or criticise.

Feemie · 04/04/2023 18:39

JackiePlace · 04/04/2023 09:57

Whatever the truth of it is, couples come as a package. You can't be friendly with just one of them.
I also have a big problem with this as my sister has just married an ignorant, racist, loud-mouthed, uncouth dickhead and has given up her professional career (she was very close to qualifying as a chartered accountant) to help him in his doomed restaurant business washing dishes and prepping vegetables and such.
I do not understand this at all. She is a tad eccentric but has a heart of gold and never lacked boyfriends.

It’s not my experience in the least that couples ‘come as a package’. A very old friend married someone ghastly, and I just see her solo, even though DH has professional dealings with him. One of my closest friends is someone I met through work, and I only met his wife a few times over the years (now divorced).

Catastrophejane · 04/04/2023 18:48

Your view sounds really victim blaming.

No wonder women subject to abuse cover it up, or are embarrassed to tell people.

Of course nice people can end up with dickheads. People are complex and if it was that simple all the dick heads would just pair up and leave all the reasonable people to enjoy each other’s company.

I’m not trying to berate you, but I think you ( and some others on this thread) should reflect on your own prejudices.

This assumption is illogical and only creates a society that makes abuse victims feel like they in some way deserved it.

Feemie · 04/04/2023 18:49

Feemie · 04/04/2023 18:39

It’s not my experience in the least that couples ‘come as a package’. A very old friend married someone ghastly, and I just see her solo, even though DH has professional dealings with him. One of my closest friends is someone I met through work, and I only met his wife a few times over the years (now divorced).

Show quote history

Oh, and the female friend married to a horror has essentially married her own (ghastly) father.

Catastrophejane · 04/04/2023 18:56

TankFlyBossW4lk · 04/04/2023 13:43

I'm totally with you, OP. It's an extension of, "Show me who your friends are, I'll tell you who you are. "

If you put up with this, there's a certain amount of acceptance of the behaviour. Worse if you feel that the person is marriage material.

There’s a big difference between who you choose as friends and who you choose as a partner.

if you judged me by my friends, you’d come to the conclusion that I’m an amazing person ( which obvs I am 😂). I have amazing friends.

married a complete cunt. ( admittedly now rid of him)

one of the things my therapist told me is that people find it much harder to be objective about their intimate partners. You become enmeshed.

and that’s before you get to relationship patterns.