To think this could solve teachers' problems

[NovemberRains]

Teachers want higher pay.

Their employers currently pay a whopping ~24% into a defined benefit pension scheme!

AIBU to think that a lot of their problems could be solved if they were just given the option to either continue as they are, or get a 20% pay increase and have a 4% employer contribution to a standard defined contribution pension scheme like the vast majority of the population get!

I respect teachers, but based on my knowledge when overall remuneration is considered including pension and holidays, they really aren't underpaid compared to other professions!

It's a similar story for other public sector professions!

If you're never done anything else except teaching, you literally have nothing to compare it to. That's a fact! One you might not all like, but a fact nevertheless. As for the poster who compared teaching to being a surgeon or being an architect - seriously, please.

Ffs. I wasn't comparing the actual job of teaching with being a surgeon or an architect, I was merely making examples to point out the dimwittedness of your suggestion that it's somehow automatically beneficial for people to go and do an entirely different job before training for and entering their chosen career. But from your reaction I'm assuming that you actually only think this is necessary for teachers, and not for all the other professionals who go straight from university into their jobs?

I suppose there are no people in other jobs who have done 'sweet fa' except work in that sector? Nobody in other jobs who get nervous about being judged and assessed on their performance? Bullshit.

I've been a teacher for 27 years and met quite a lot of teachers who have come to teaching later in life after doing different jobs. Guess what - some of them are amazing, most of them are good, some of them are a bit crap - just like other teachers. Ditto for Headteachers.

Oh and yes, my cage is rattled, as it always is by people talking crap about teaching and education.

I have never understood this attitude that teaching isn't 'the real world'.

Dealing with 30 (or more) children, their parents, colleagues, outside agencies, exam boards, inspectors etc seems to me to be the epitome of the real world.

Exactly, @PyjamaFan . I've also never got any indication from colleagues who have come to teaching from other careers that they don't think teaching is the real world, or that it is easy compared with what they did before. I've certainly met a few who have stuck it for a few years and then quit though.

Of course. No-one is ever nervous taking their driving test either. Grown-ups don't get nervous 🙄

Some really strange ideas of what 'privilege' is on this thread.

Back in the day I did different jobs before teaching. I was a legal assistant - all the lawyers definitely worked very long hours but they were very handsomely regarded for it. I was also an office manager for an IT support company. They certainly never worked late and were also well-paid.

PyjamaFan
Agree with you. The 'real world' comments are silly and make me laugh.

I had a career before teaching. It was different to teaching, but no more or less 'real'.

I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that a lot of people are more willing to push a rush to the bottom and to fight each other for crumbs than they are to advocate for improved workers' conditions for all. We've seen it throughout the waves of strike action across different industries. It's a childish sense of "if I can't have it, nobody can". Even the tragic death of a head teacher brought about people arguing that wanting reform to Ofsted was proof teachers couldn't handle a little audit and audits in the real world are much, much worse. 🙄

Everything else, the whataboutery, the fake care about other workers, is grasping at straws to try and undermine those who are trying to make sure their sectors are properly funded, well managed, with decent pay and conditions.

This sounds crazy! What do you do on a full work day on your holidays? Are you preparing lessons? Filling out paperwork? Do all teachers stay til 6pm in school every day like you mention (6pm finish)? If the amount of workload is due to red tape imposed to teachers, can't you all push for that to be minimized? As a parent, I just want my kids teacher to teach them and to be engaging for the hours my kid is in school, perhaps some time after for preparing lessons, but couldn't care about the red tape, or expect that teachers work a full day on their holidays and frankly never new this was across the board. It seems weird to me to have to do so much extra time...in the corporate world you'd be pulled out for a chat about your time management skills....of course it could be that the workload is not sustainable in which case I would say teachers strike should be focus on that and not pay rise....

of course it could be that the workload is not sustainable in which case I would say teachers strike should be focus on that and not pay rise…

But, teachers can’t strike about workload…

Do all teachers stay til 6pm in school every day like you mention (6pm finish)?

Some can't, because they have their own young children to pick up and look after. Those teachers tend to leave school at 3:30 or 4pm, deal with family stuff and then sertle down to work for a couple of hours after their kids have gone to bed. Mine are teens now. I'm in school from 8 until 5:30, occasionally bring more work home to do after that, and I usually work all Sunday morning.

No, we can't push to reduce admin/paperwork. We are only allowed to strike for pay and working conditions. We are contracted to work our contact hours 'plus whatever time necessary to carry out our job effectively' or something- I can't remember exactly how it's worded, but it certainly leaves the door open to expecting us to do stuff which takes us way, way beyond our timetabled teaching days.

@Moreorlessmentallystable planning lessons takes an incredibly long time, especially if you're newer to the profession.

Lots of schools don't have a bank of shared resources that people can pull out and teach from right off the bat. Even if they do, the lessons need to be edited to suit the needs of the students in their class. A lesson made for a top set isn't going to work for a bottom set class.

When I was in my NQT year it took me 3 hours to plan one lesson. I'm a Science teacher. 6 years in it doesn't take me that long at all as I've built my resource bank, but if I'm given a lesson to plan on something that may be out of my specialism it can take up to a good 2 hours, even now.

Do all teachers stay til 6pm in school every day like you mention (6pm finish)?
It's school dependant, role-dependant and circumstances dependant.

I've worked in some schools where I was able to work 7.30/8am-5.30/6pm and not take any work home unless there was a deadline coming up or a particular pinch point. The environment was supportive, leadership genuinely did their best to be mindful of workload as best they could, and it was a nice place to work on the whole.

I've worked in other schools where I could leave as the building was locked at 6.30pm, spend my evenings and weekends playing catching up, and people would still roll their eyes at my lack of commitment because I had to drop DC off so wasn't in work until 8.30am.

Things I have to do that take up loads of time:

• exam access paperwork - has to be done by each subject teacher individually. Mostly tick boxes but some narrative.
• SEN review paperwork - ditto
• paperwork for external agencies - ditto
• Recording interventions - if it's not logged, it didn't happen. That means recording that you met a child/ contacted home/whatever

None of those take longer than a few minutes each. All of them (except that last one) are necessary and only I can do them. But they add up.

I'm lucky - my department is very organised and has its resources well-planned and accessible. However, you still have to plan what you will get through in each lesson, tweak resources to make them appropriate for the specific class, photocopy stuff, upload all resources to Teams in advance for each class so that absent students or those with SEN can access it etc.

Plus marking (I have 12 classes, 11 of which have 28-30 students in) and dealing with various admin stuff. On any one day we get maybe between 5 and 8 updates about individual pupil incidents or needs of various kinds, which often involve reading through a chain of parental emails or an updated or new IEP about how to adapt our teaching to help a specific student. If you have a full teaching day you obviously can't even start dealing with any of that until after school.

It's not that any of those things are unreasonable things to expect teachers to do. It's our job. It's just that it's not remotely possible to actually do everything within school hours.

Depressing how dumb people are :(

1. not how the TPS works. People should understand it’s not the same as a private sector employee pension in terms of how you contribute

2. strikes are only allowed to be on pay

3. your kids’ futures you’re messing up by not standing behind teachers

of course it could be that the workload is not sustainable in which case I would say teachers strike should be focus on that and not pay rise…

It may not be explicitly the reason for the strike (as we can't strike for that), but it is certainly part of the negotiations with the DfE. The unions have suggested a number of workload reducing measures and most have been point blank refused. It's more levels of contempt piled on top of contempt.

I think part of the problem for teachers is that we’ve all been to school for 12-14 years so feel we know what the job is like, rightly or wrongly. . That’s not the case for any other profession.

As ever I remain confused as to why so many parents literally don’t care about improving things before there aren’t any teachers left.

I’d sort of get it if it was all childless people being like, eh, not my kids, what do I care? But it’s not!

I work with people who spend half their days whining about how cushy teachers have it and how they hope they get forced to return to work all chastised - and I just wonder why you’re ok with letting your kids be looked after all day by people you think so little of?

As ever I remain confused as to why so many parents literally don’t care about improving things before there aren’t any teachers left

Schools, head teachers, senior staff, teachers, TAs, admin staff….all work hard, they put their hands in their own pockets for resources, they quietly feed hungry children, give money for bus fares….they have juggled budgets, papered over the (literal) cracks, used supply teachers and moved staff around when absence is long. Parents are only just beginning to understand that there is a problem.

If you read threads on here, parents believe that young teachers bring vibrancy, energy, new ideas….they don’t think about the impact of losing experience. They shrug shoulders and assume that another, better teacher will be along soon. They question our vocation, and believe their children are better off without teachers like us. Others believe that subject knowledge isn’t particularly important given sound bites like ‘national curriculum’, assuming teachers don’t really plan, they just download and go. They think nothing of emailing at 10pm and complaining when there is no response by 9am. They demand special privileges for their child - toilet pass when there is no medical reason, exemption from uniform, refusal to allow their child to do a detention. All the time ignoring the impact this has on the average assured the teachers within it.

Education has been in crisis for some time but it is only now that it’s beginning to show. It’s probably already too late - I had lunch with a friend yesterday who for her department the option is a vacancy (already advertised twice with no qualified applicants and no unqualified applicants with a relevant degree/background)and fingers crossed for some specialist supply come September or renew a contract of a teacher who, by all accounts, is useless. Neither is an option she wants to go with - she wants a qualified specialist in front of her classes because that’s what our kids deserve.

The biggest point of confusion for me, however, is how, as a country, we can sit back and ignore the lack of investment in education. We are on a national downhill slide which will impact for generations and no one seems to care,

@Changechangechanging It’s definitely a national mindset. I taught abroad in a culture where education is valued and teaching is a noble profession - a world away from how it is here. It’s embarrassing.

The biggest point of confusion for me, however, is how, as a country, we can sit back and ignore the lack of investment in education. We are on a national downhill slide which will impact for generations and no one seems to care.

This is the key thing for me. Proper investment in education would be paid back a dozen times over in future economic growth. Without that investment, you are intentionally and deliberately limiting the future growth of the country. All of the current government's thinking around education is so incredibly short-term and focused on the wrong things.

Do you have kids, and do you want them to have teachers?

Because this is honestly a pretty nonsense post- you say yourself that you wouldn't want to do the job? Unless you think we can do without schools (I think most parents would disagree) then someone needs to do it.

Right now, the pay and working conditions aren't attracting enough staff.

The irony is I've spoken to a lot of people in their 20s who are childless and aren't involved in education- and yet they get it. Perhaps because they've been in schools more recently, and have seen the way it's going? Or perhaps they understand without teachers we don't have doctors/social workers/nurses/engineers and all the other people who keep society functional? Or perhaps they don't get their news from the right wing media?

Whereas it does seem like a lot of parents don't get it?

Right up until the point it's their child who doesn't have a maths/science/french/geography teacher or doesn't have a form tutor or is spending the day bouncing from one supply teacher to another who doesn't know them.

And then they complain to the school- which is all well and good - but I've never yet met a head who is actually trying NOT to recruit. I've met some heads who recruit badly, sure or don't accept that maybe on your third time of advertising you need to employ the "best of a bad bunch candidate" rather than hoping someone stellar will turn up on the 4th time round.

But they don't seem to grasp it's a national issue, and that there are issues recruiting across the country!

I think part of it is that schools try to hide the issues from parents for as long as possible, and the actual impact of the teacher shortage isn't widely reported in the mainstream media.

Oh, I also think a lot of people on mumsnet think they can buy out of the issues around the teacher shortage by buying into the private system. Not understanding that the current situation with teachers long term will lead to difficulties recruiting in the private sector which will at the very least lead to fee rises...