To make you aware that surrogacy is going to be liberalised

[VestaTilley]

Today, the Law Commission have published their final recommendations to Government, calling for reform of surrogacy laws in the U.K.

The proposed change would make commissioning parents legal parents at birth. That means that the birth mother would never be regarded as the legal parent, nor would she be listed on the birth certificate.

This has been privately lobbied for behind closed doors, away from women and maternity groups for years. The Law Commission consulted in 2019, but never published their responses or said who had fed in to their consultation.

Law firms and surrogacy agencies are rubbing their hands with glee today: I feel physically sick.

They would have you believe surrogacy in this country is “altruistic”. This is not the case. Women can receive upwards of £20,000 per pregnancy in “expenses” - which is a huge financial incentive to a woman if they are from a poor background.

Do we want to live in a society which creates a servant class of women? Which takes babies away from their mothers at birth?

When pregnant we are all advised to bond with our babies, breastfeed if we can and speak to our babies in utero. How does the NHS square this advice with making it legal for a child to never legally have a connection to its own mother?

If you are in anyway concerned about these proposals please, please contact your MP and raise all the noise you can to try and stop this before it is too late:

https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/surrogacy-laws-to-be-overhauled-under-new-reforms-benefitting-the-child-surrogate-and-intended-parents/

A uk surrogate on average receives 10-15k in paid expenses.

How much pregnancy actually cost in the U.K.?

So not a favour done out of the kindness of her heart, but for the money.

May I ask, was this woman in a stable financial position to begin with and do you know roughly how much she got in total, is this info she shares?

In what way?

How much did you get?

So she sold a baby.

Glad we’re clear on that.

I can tell you that most surrogates -all surrogates that I know - are in stable financial circumstances. Couples feel wary and ethically conflicted about matching with surrogates who aren't in a stable position, for all the reasons you might imagine. We do not have a situation such as in India where women were doing it to survive and feed their children. It is a more social culture where it's done for a range of personal, ethical and social reasons. There are much easier ways for women to raise 15k and many do not have expenses in that ballpark at all.

I don’t know the finer details. I do know she’s been a surrogate twice . The first time shortly after her husband walked out on her and 4 young children.

She wanted to keep the kids in the marital home.

Actually we don't agree. If you're interested in the real cost of pregnancy there are some great videos explaining how expenses ratchet up, especially if you're doing IVF.

Exactly that @Albiboba, how much does pregnancy cost in the U.K?

More specifically, how much does pregnancy cost where pregnancy care is covered by the NHS?

Funny how you will not answer the question I keep posing but instead, try and deflect it back into something not said.

I can only surmise that the clinics and the law firm are very, very expensive, whether they "claim" it's not for profit or not.
I have seen many, many "non-profit" organizations where the expenses are millions upon millions and hidden under the guise of salary, benefits, travel, fund-raising, and other such expense to the tune of millions upon millions as compared to what they spend "helping others". One, that gives out grants, routinely gives out less than 200K in grants and "expenses" of 10-12 million a year.
So, how much is the usual TOTAL cost for parents in the UK to get a child via surrogacy? Or should I just use my imagination and guess 100K pounds or so?

Oh wow @lifeturnsonadime that's so very sad. How desperate this woman must have been, to keep the family home for her 4 young children. I feel so sorry for her.

What tweet? But no, they don't want time for the purpose of changing their minds. Surrogates do not think like that. They may want equal parental responsibility as this is what everyone was expecting and it's come a bit left field to hear they would have to apply but any unease about that is not connected to changing their minds. I can explain why it is if you like but it's a bit niche.

You’re being wilfully obtuse. A surrogate is not paid for being pregnant, nor do you pay to give birth in the uk. The are covered for expenses directly related to the pregnant so they aren’t in profit but they aren’t out of pocket.
These expenses are additional expenses the woman occurs due to being pregnant, time ill so not being able to work, childcare for her children so she can attend appointments, a higher food bill, maternity clothes, physio, prenatal yoga etc.

But of this you know yet you chose to play dumb.

I may have missed the question. What was it, put starkly?

It's the new feminist movement where they get permission to have opinions according to what men want and need. I like to call it feminine misogyny.

If you're interested in the real cost of pregnancy there are some great videos explaining how expenses ratchet up, especially if you're doing IVF.

I remember watching one on YT - Lisa Lumdeelums I think her name was - and she detailed her expenses which included having a gardener.

@Nanaof1 I can only surmise that the clinics and the law firm are very, very expensive

No idea why you would keep making this assumption when these things are very easy to find out. The legal fees regarding the surrogacy are a tiny amount compared to the 10-15 of expenses. The fertility clinic can vary significantly depending on what is needed but it is more than possible for your ivf to be covered under the nhs and to use your left over embryos for the surrogacy which means the fees are minimal.

The idea that they do want time to change their minds is a mumsnet myth.

Indeed not - there were several well-publicised legal cases involving surrogates changing their minds towards the end of the twentieth century, including one which was made into a relatively successful film, IIRC. This isn’t by any means a “mumsnet myth” as you so derogatorily put it.

She was a surrogate twice then did doula work.

I’m not sure she entirely recognised that she was being used because of her vulnerability.

whichever way, she was still used as a commodity and still traded 2 babies for financial gain.

Sorry I realise you did put it again.

You're completely wrong.

The total cost of surrogacy in the UK is the surrogate's expenses plus clinic fees (if GS surrogacy), the expenses connected to paying for life insurance and wills for everyone involved and any travel costs to scans. Since it's illegal to have a legally binding surrogacy contract, nothing is going to solicitors. It's not necessary to have one except for the will and it's not possible to have one to do a contract. That's not to say there aren't solicitors out there offering advice but that's all it is - not actual work. You mention agencies. The big surrogacy agencies are not for profit. If you choose to use one, it is just because they're a helpful guide to the process and a good place to meet. Again, it's not necessary. I don't have personal experience of an agency but rather than costs running into thousands and thousands of pounds, there is a one off joining fee which gives you access to the data base, ongoing advice and meditation if required. Some people find this helpful. I think it is around 1k which covers the running costs. The agencies are not taking money from couples and giving surrogates a cut. No PO would be granted if that was going on. The reimbursement is directly between the surrogate and the couple. The agency doesn't hold, see or benefit from that money. There MAY be a notorious 'organisation' charging a higher fee that exists pretty much in name only - I've never known anyone to actually use it.

There are many variables affecting the cost of surrogacy - if you use a British fertility clinic it will be more expensive. If you live far away from the surrogate you will have to travel. If the surrogate does a job that conflicts with pregnancy you will have to reimburse her for any work she misses so her expenses will be higher. If more than one round of IVF is required it will be more. Some people might pay 5k or less in total. Others might pay 20-30k when clinics fees are included. It is certainly not 100k!! There is no way you could pay that even if you wanted to. The hidden cost is the fertility clinic.

That is one of the saddest and most hideous articles I've ever read. That was nothing more than human trafficking for the express purpose of making and taking and selling babies. I can only hope India can enforce that law and that other countries that allow international surrogacy make laws to stop this abuse. Too many countries are still allowing their women to be used as incubators, as if they have no other use or function to the world.

There are plenty of examples of surrogates changing their minds and wanting to keep the baby - just do a few searches and you find loads. The most famous case was the Baby M case in the US that was the one made into a film; but you can easily find others — here’s one from 2011:
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/21/surrogate-mother-keep-baby-court
(That’s an interesting judgment well worth a read, touching on lots of things posters on the thread have raised.)

In fact, contrary to what you’re suggesting, it seems to happen fairly frequently. Which makes me think that the idea of reversing the automatic parental responsibility is not really anything to do with the rather disingenuous reasons given repeatedly on this thread - the surrogate wants to get on with her life! And have it all done and dusted! And not be bothered with medical queries! - BUT, rather, it’s all about protecting the purchaser from the very real risk that they don’t get exactly what they ordered. It’s all about wanting to make sure you get the product you bought, rather than the interests of the child.

This is a good current article by Victoria Smith on surrogacy (also mentions the Baby M case and the types of “feminists” who are pro-surrogacy):
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/march-2023/surrogacy-and-the-rise-of-the-female-patriarch/

Yes I'm not denying it has happened but the idea that it is common or a real problem is a myth. Surrogates want protection from the ips changing their minds if anything.

No it really doesn't happen frequently. It is a vanishingly small statistic. You would be badly misrepresenting surrogacy in the UK to suggest otherwise as the vast majority of POs go ahead as planned, albeit without the media circus.

Women who do change their minds have not had huge success in the courts because they have been known in the surrogacy community as vulnerable people who should never have been a surrogate and were doing it for the wrong reasons - money and attention. In the new proposals, checks would operate to identify women like this before conception which would be hugely beneficial to them.

I don't think she wants to hear this. Odd.