Page 4 | AIBU to not want ofstead abolished?

Applepiesmum · 2023-03-23T16:03:44+00:00

please bare with I don’t have a school aged child yet however it’s the only criteria to assess schools against and as a parent the first thing I check when looking at a school if I should move to an area i understand headteachers might be under pressure to perform but so are all public sector workers Doctors and nurses assessed and judged on performance by patients / students am I the only person who is thinking like this

whatevrrrr · 23/03/2023 20:28

BTW at all my DC's schools, I think inspectors could have "just turned up", and they would have found happy, purposeful schools which catered for the needs of all their pupils.

FullaSpjäll · 23/03/2023 20:29

Laptopneeded, schools get a maximum of 20 hours notice.
Schools are in a constant state of vigilance and readiness, there isn't a day when what I do is not informed by the awareness that Ofsted are expected in the next 18 months. All my planning and teaching, all the decisions I make as a class teacher and subject leader of multiple subjects happen as a direct result of the expectation of our next inspection. Ofsted look at evidence accumulated over several years so there is always a huge amount of stress and pressure to ensure this evidence is in place and can be backed up in pupils' books, colleague's plans and remains at the fore of pupil's minds in the event of pupil interviews.
Under the current protocol, there is no way of eliminating stress and pressure on staff.

CaptainMyCaptain · 23/03/2023 20:33

DomesticShortHair · 23/03/2023 20:27

YANBU. I’m of the opinion that if the teachers are strongly against it, then it must be doing something right.

Because you want your children to be taught by unhappy teachers? Or supply teachers because the full time teachers have left?

daffodilandtulip · 23/03/2023 20:35

Inspections, yes.
Reports & descriptions, yes.
Safeguarding checks, yes.

Inspectors all who have different ideas, no.
Goalposts that's are changed everyday, no.
Barbaric hours long grilling, at the same time as actually doing your actual job, no.
Being spoken to like crap by inspectors, no.
Reports that use wild generalisations, making a teeny issue into a huge one, because they choose to focus on it, no.
Being called inadequate instead of giving support to improve education, no.

I removed my child from an outstanding school where the children were screamed at daily, bullying was rampant and my child cried everyday. He moved to a RI where he absolutely thrived and received the best education and outcomes.

Mum1976Mum · 23/03/2023 20:41

I have been through many ofsted inspections as a teacher and my husband is a part time ofsted inspector and we both want the system changed. I have seen schools with terrible problems get outstanding because they know how to play the system and schools who do so much fantastic work with disengaged youngsters who fail.

My husband inspects FE colleges and leads an Outstanding one himself. He hates giving a one word judgment and walking away. He would like a system where they spend a week in schools observing and then another week sitting down with them to discuss problem areas and the way forward. Then they would have another month to improve before any judgements were made. And it wouldn’t be just one judgment but comments about all the different areas. But this would cost a huge amount of money so it won’t happen. Plus most ofsted inspectors haven’t taught in a school for years and don’t know their arse from their elbow.

Laptopneeded · 23/03/2023 20:46

@Mum1976Mum what can they observe in a week though?
Imagine the sheer pressure of trying to keep unengaged fe students constantly going for

. ages and ages when they don't work that way?
The first step is being realistic. What are they looking for?

Settings and cohorts and needs vary wildly from place to place! Even for my own dc they work in different ways.

I would be horrified if dc school 1 had same ethos as dc 2 school because they both have different needs and environment.

Lovetotravel123 · 23/03/2023 20:47

QuackMooBaaOink · 23/03/2023 16:25

YABU.
Ofsted are not effective, relevant, reflective of a school or fit for purpose and haven't been for a very long time. They want the general public to believe the narrative that they are an essentially guide to choosing a school but they absolutely aren't. They offer, at best, one inspectors personal, highly subjective opinion of one aspect of a school in one moment on one day. Schools are ever changing. No two lessons are the same. No two days are the same. Just as no two children are the same.

Picture this: inspector goes into a classroom and selects a child at random.
INSPECTOR: "How does this lesson fit with the learning you did yesterday/earlier in the week/last week?"
CHILD: "I don't know".
OFSTED REPORT: Teachers do not ensure that children understand the purpose and sequence of their learning. Children are unaware of how their current learning builds on previous learning.

What the inspector hasn't seen..

That child is frightened when put on the spot and gives "I don't know" as a default response.
That child hasn't had breakfast this morning and witnessed an argument at home which is playing on his mind so he wasn't able to think about the question.
That child isn't feeling well.
That child fell out with a friend at playtime and is still focused on that.
That child witnessed their mum being hit before school and can't concentrate because they are worried about her.
That child was a selective mute until last half term. Teachers have put hours and hours of support into helping them, often in their own time, to get them to this point. But strangers asking questions still worries them.

I could add hundreds more. There are so many reasons why a child, a teacher, a school, may not "perform" in any given moment on a given day but there are usually good reasons for it. Ofsted inspections don't show the teacher sat up at night worrying about a child in their class, the LSA crying at lunch because they've had an awful disclosure from a child, the headteacher sat at home whilst their family are out for the day on a Saturday because they have work to do. It also doesn't show the individuals that make up a school.

What it does do is incite fear and frustration and panic into schools. It makes schools jump through unnecessary hoops which don't benefit the children in any way at all, just to meet the ever changing whim of what OFSTED arbitrarily decide is the current "in thing" that they want to see.
It adds to teacher workloads which takes that time away from the children in their care.
It pushes amazing, caring professionals out of a job they love because it is so fundamentally flawed and unfair.
It reduces the passion, dedication, hard work, individualism, and all the 10000 things that make up the fabric of a school to one single word.
It often goes years between inspections, so actually when parents look at them, they are often so outdated as to be meaningless anyway.
It offers no chance, desire or opportunity for schools to reflect, to be supported, to work together to implement positive change for the benefit of the children. It just condemns them with a judgement for another however many years.
It is demoralising, negative, and doesn't focus on the one thing we all want - to make schools better for the benefit of the children.

No-one is suggesting that schools shouldn't be regulated in anyway at all. But there are better, fairer, more effective ways of doing it that retain good staff, motivate schools, improve outcomes for children and don't cause passionate, dedicated people to literally take their own lives due to the unbearable process.

So well said. Spot on.

scoutcat · 23/03/2023 20:51

MargaretThursday · 23/03/2023 16:29

People on here love to run down "outstanding" schools and tell you how they chose their poorly rated school and it's far better than the outstanding one they teach in. Which kind of makes you wonder why they still are teaching at the outstanding one if it's so bad, and why they aren't heading down to the poor rated ones, which almost always struggle to recruit, to offer their expertise.

In real life people do take it into consideration. One local school went from being undersubscribed when they were good to having over 4x the numbers applying after they got their outstanding result. That's an awful lot of people taking it into consideration.

What people don't realise is that if they abolish OFSTED, then OFSTED will promptly reappear under another name. They'll still be inspecting the schools; still giving a grade and parents will take the grade just as seriously. It's not going to mean no inspection.

What they need to be aiming for is parents to read the report and decide on the report whether that is something that worries them. For example I'd be looking at SEN, maths provision, and that sort of thing because that's what would effect my dc most.

But also I had a relative who used to rave about her dc's wonderful school. There were several times over the first few years when I stopped her and questioned something, and said I thought it was concerning. But she'd come out with "The head/other teacher says it's totally right because..."
Then OFSTED came in. Honestly it was the worst report I've ever seen, but all the points I had questioned were raised by OFSTED. The reaction of the SLT and governors was entirely "this is just them being mean, they don't understand us, it's not fair..."
But they did have to face up to it, and it is a much better school now for having that. If Ofsted hadn't been in, they'd have continued as they were.

I would be very suspicious of any head teacher saying they'll refuse entry. For a start off they should know that they can't.
I'd suspect the head saw it as a win-win situation. If Ofsted give them a poor report, they'll claim it's vindictive. If they'd been able to hold them off a few days it gives them more time to prepare. And it might stop Ofsted giving a poor report too if they're leant on by the government because they know that would be more poor press.

The reason I would rather send my son to his Good school is because they seem to really appreciate the whole child rather than the academic side. It is a really creative school that seems to have unique ideas and events for the children.

The school I used to work at was so focused on the Outstanding title that it forgot about the individual child and the well being of its staff. Which is why I left. I'm sure there are truly truly outstanding schools out there but I much enjoyed working at an RI school.

noblegiraffe · 23/03/2023 20:55

I wonder whether some people wedded to Ofsted gradings aren't so worried about the devastating impact they can have on schools, but the impact it might have on house prices if they go.

NumberTheory · 23/03/2023 21:00

I wouldn’t want to see ofstead abolished and that’s it. But I think it’s currently really damaging and a part of a system that makes schools less effective than they could be.

FullaSpjäll · 23/03/2023 21:01

Noble, I wonder whether some people wedded to Ofsted gradings aren't so worried about the devastating impact they can have on schools, but the impact it might have on house prices if they go.
It's a given, spot on.
When DC1's school was downgraded from Outstanding to Inadequate, this was a huge bone of contention in the community. Previously supportive parents turned on HT overnight.

TizerorFizz · 23/03/2023 21:10

@Cavies
A lot of people commenting on here clearly have not read the Framework. Some of what has been written is utter tosh. It’s useful to have some up to date info!

In many organizations, a few people are not the best. The majority from Ofsted have a professional approach.

I also don’t think good teachers teach for an inspection. They are good all the time. If they have to up their game every day, it’s a bit of a low bar!

A recent ofsted report is useful. A 10 year old one isn’t. What ofsted really want to see is progress which is derived from good teaching. They want secure safeguarding arrangements. They want robust leadership with vision and ability to implement improvement and a well run school which meets its obligations. So do parents.

Tallulasdancingshoes · 23/03/2023 21:24

I don’t think anyone is suggesting schools are never checked on, but the current framework is not fit for purpose. There needs to be quite a radical reform.

EnthENd · 23/03/2023 21:33

YANBU.

I agree it needs reform. But knee-jerk law, in response to a tragedy, is bad law.

MarshaBradyo · 23/03/2023 21:49

FullaSpjäll · 23/03/2023 21:01

Noble, I wonder whether some people wedded to Ofsted gradings aren't so worried about the devastating impact they can have on schools, but the impact it might have on house prices if they go.
It's a given, spot on.
When DC1's school was downgraded from Outstanding to Inadequate, this was a huge bone of contention in the community. Previously supportive parents turned on HT overnight.

It’s more finding schools where other parents jump through hoops to get in. They tend to do well.

Whether it’s pay fees, pray, select, or move and pay parents are invested.

I can see going from Outstanding to Inadequate is a big downgrade though. Hopefully someone managed to improve the school again.

imnotthatkindofmum · 23/03/2023 21:59

No one saying schools shouldn't be inspected but it's not fit for purpose. It needs to be thorough, consistent and useful. It is none of those things currently.

noblegiraffe · 23/03/2023 22:25

It's not about parental interest in education (unlike faith schools or grammars) so much as parental wealth, Marsha.

Kids from expensive catchments are far less likely to come to school too hungry and cold to eat. Schools in deprived catchments have to feed and clothe kids before they can even think about learning, and that takes time away from education. In addition, the wealthy catchment schools can set online homework and assume the kids will be able to access it at home. They can arrange a French exchange and kids will be able to pay for it. The kids' parents can hire a string of tutors to support in any failing subjects.

Schools in deprived areas have so many issues relating to poverty that they have to deal with that those schools in wealthy catchments barely even need to consider.

Dacadactyl · 23/03/2023 22:27

I 100% agree with you OP.

There needs to be a system where we as parents find out about schools.

I have 2 kids and they are in outstanding schools (one primary, one secondary) and I can see in both why they were awarded those judgements (years ago). I agree with every word the inspectors said.

SpringBlossomJoy · 23/03/2023 22:27

They want it replaced with something more constructive rather than punitive.
Teacher moral and recruitment is at an all time low. Something needs to be done.

noblegiraffe · 23/03/2023 22:28

SpringBlossomJoy · 23/03/2023 22:27

They want it replaced with something more constructive rather than punitive.
Teacher moral and recruitment is at an all time low. Something needs to be done.

Headteacher recruitment is also catastrophic.

MarshaBradyo · 23/03/2023 22:30

Dacadactyl · 23/03/2023 22:27

I 100% agree with you OP.

There needs to be a system where we as parents find out about schools.

I have 2 kids and they are in outstanding schools (one primary, one secondary) and I can see in both why they were awarded those judgements (years ago). I agree with every word the inspectors said.

Agree. I would like a way to know when considering schools. Although thankfully if it does change my dc will just stay where they are anyway so it doesn’t matter that much to us. It will be the Dc coming through afterwards who will be impacted.

LuluBlakey1 · 23/03/2023 22:35

QuackMooBaaOink · 23/03/2023 16:25

YABU.
Ofsted are not effective, relevant, reflective of a school or fit for purpose and haven't been for a very long time. They want the general public to believe the narrative that they are an essentially guide to choosing a school but they absolutely aren't. They offer, at best, one inspectors personal, highly subjective opinion of one aspect of a school in one moment on one day. Schools are ever changing. No two lessons are the same. No two days are the same. Just as no two children are the same.

Picture this: inspector goes into a classroom and selects a child at random.
INSPECTOR: "How does this lesson fit with the learning you did yesterday/earlier in the week/last week?"
CHILD: "I don't know".
OFSTED REPORT: Teachers do not ensure that children understand the purpose and sequence of their learning. Children are unaware of how their current learning builds on previous learning.

What the inspector hasn't seen..

That child is frightened when put on the spot and gives "I don't know" as a default response.
That child hasn't had breakfast this morning and witnessed an argument at home which is playing on his mind so he wasn't able to think about the question.
That child isn't feeling well.
That child fell out with a friend at playtime and is still focused on that.
That child witnessed their mum being hit before school and can't concentrate because they are worried about her.
That child was a selective mute until last half term. Teachers have put hours and hours of support into helping them, often in their own time, to get them to this point. But strangers asking questions still worries them.

I could add hundreds more. There are so many reasons why a child, a teacher, a school, may not "perform" in any given moment on a given day but there are usually good reasons for it. Ofsted inspections don't show the teacher sat up at night worrying about a child in their class, the LSA crying at lunch because they've had an awful disclosure from a child, the headteacher sat at home whilst their family are out for the day on a Saturday because they have work to do. It also doesn't show the individuals that make up a school.

What it does do is incite fear and frustration and panic into schools. It makes schools jump through unnecessary hoops which don't benefit the children in any way at all, just to meet the ever changing whim of what OFSTED arbitrarily decide is the current "in thing" that they want to see.
It adds to teacher workloads which takes that time away from the children in their care.
It pushes amazing, caring professionals out of a job they love because it is so fundamentally flawed and unfair.
It reduces the passion, dedication, hard work, individualism, and all the 10000 things that make up the fabric of a school to one single word.
It often goes years between inspections, so actually when parents look at them, they are often so outdated as to be meaningless anyway.
It offers no chance, desire or opportunity for schools to reflect, to be supported, to work together to implement positive change for the benefit of the children. It just condemns them with a judgement for another however many years.
It is demoralising, negative, and doesn't focus on the one thing we all want - to make schools better for the benefit of the children.

No-one is suggesting that schools shouldn't be regulated in anyway at all. But there are better, fairer, more effective ways of doing it that retain good staff, motivate schools, improve outcomes for children and don't cause passionate, dedicated people to literally take their own lives due to the unbearable process.

The example you give is one of an inspector not doing their job properly. Any OFSTED Inspector is trained to ALWAYS be aware of the impact of their presence on a child/children, and to take into account a child's current and previous learning issues. I have never known them take the evidence of one child's response as the only evidence. At the end of each day in the inspectors' group discussion session all inspectors contribute evidence from a wide range of sources. They will deliberately collect more the next day to clarify what is emerging as a picture.

Nimbostratus100 · 23/03/2023 22:38

Laptopneeded · 23/03/2023 20:03

Maybe it's the build up.
They should just turn up.

Then no need for ready prepared lessons or prepping people and stressing them out.

They should be realistic and not expect perfect behaviour or perfect anything. That's not reality.

They should be looking at grades and teachers and staff knowing their pupils... And their needs and how they adapt.

I think perhaps turn up unannounced but with realistic expectations and that morning invite parent feedback all day and night. Then go back in and ask about the feedback and see how that matches their initial visit.

I know posters will tear this apart but I'm thinking out loud on a chat forum not submitting a report.

so you are saying give 12 hours less notice than they do right now?

But that changes absolutely nothing about the 4 years build up, does it, and the constant re-evaluating, replanning and re-forcasting what ofsted seem to want this month, that goes on in every school all the time.

Teddypoops · 23/03/2023 22:39

The current inspection regime is broken and inconsistent.

My kids ‘outstanding’ primary school was last inspected before my son was born. He’s now in year 8!

Dacadactyl · 23/03/2023 22:41

Teddypoops · 23/03/2023 22:39

The current inspection regime is broken and inconsistent.

My kids ‘outstanding’ primary school was last inspected before my son was born. He’s now in year 8!

Yes same with my sons primary school. But it is outstanding as far as I'm concerned...for my kids anyway. Did you disagree with OFSTED then having had your child in the school?