To refuse to leave rented property

[Boymamabee]

I’m having an ethical dilemma thanks to my husband…

I’m heavily pregnant (due a c-section next month) and we’ve been served a two month no-fault notice by our landlord (it’s all valid).

We’re struggling to find rented properties within our price range and although we’re at risk of homelessness, the council can’t guarantee temp accommodation before our notice expires. This makes my husband anxious as he says we have no right to stay in a house we don’t own and it’s unfair on the LL whose sale might fall through.

Places for the same amount of rent, or less, than we currently pay are more rural and would cost more fuel. Many of the local schools don’t have specialised facilities for kids with ASD (think rural schools with 20 students and 2 LSAs) and DS LOVES his school!

This is where it gets tricky…

We’ve been advised that if we stay with family or friends before the LL enacts a court possession order, we could be seen as making ourselves “intentionally homeless”. Likewise if we get ourselves into debt/arrears living somewhere we can’t afford.

I’ve proposed we listen to
their advice and stay put for now, but DH thinks it’s selfish and we’ll naturally find another way to make ends meet. He wants to be out before our contract ends and he feels sorry for the LL who’s going through a divorce.

AIBU?

I’m a LL and personally I believe that 2 months notice is too short, and would have given longer. I also wouldn’t blame a tenant if they really felt that social housing was their best option, and so made me ‘evict’.

However I really would get good local housing advice - there should be specialist advice preventing homelessness in your area. As what you don’t want to do is just ignore a problem and kick it down the road. Social housing is really scarce now, and it’s possible you could end up making yourselves less ‘attractive’ to future private landlords by waiting until eviction and not having a reference from this LL. Social housing may mean months of temporary housing whilst you wait for a house. Only your local council can advise you on this.

I've just been given two months notice as landlord as finally sold. I'm terrified I'll get nothing else as flats are very scarce and expensive where I am. I'm on the housing list but on a band d.

Ahhh sorry. This is very stressful. Will you wait to be evicted?

It’s rubbish isn’t it!

Hope you find somewhere soon.

@TennisWithDeborah I don't know I'm so stressed!! I've enquired about three flats already and have heard nothing back. I haven't been given a section 21 as my landlord said I've been here 9 years it would be rude to but has given me notice in the email.

Hi Lollipoprainbow, I’m sorry to hear this. Please speak with the charity Shelter. Notice via email is not legal notice at all. A Section 21 notice on form 6a is the only notice for a landlord to start the legal process to end a tenancy. It sounds like your landlord doesn’t know what they are doing. Have they protected your deposit in a government approved scheme and do you have a valid gas check?

Just because your landlord has found a buyer for the property doesn’t change your legal rights as a tenant in any way and your landlord must follow the proper legal process for ending a tenancy. That means your landlord previously issuing you with all the prescribed information (deposit protection certificate, current gas check cert, how to rent booklet and EPC cert) and sending you a section 21 on form 6a. This gives 2 months before your landlord can apply to court to start the lengthy eviction process, it does not mean that you have to move out on this date. I understand this is a stressful situation but you do actually have a lot of time, some evictions can take up to 9 months to a year in some cases. Your landlord should have waited for vacant possession of the property before marketing it. Don’t take any “advice” from your landlord or letting agent (they will only present you with options in their favour rather than your true tenant rights) and please contact Shelter either via phone or you can use the live chat function, good luck x

lollipoprainbow surely once you are actually homeless you will get emergency housing and not be in band D. If you can’t find anything yourself then unfortunately you have to sit it out and take what they give you when you are on the street. It’s a terrible situation for you.

My friend was in temp accommodation. A one bed /room that her her dp and 2 kids had to share for 18mths

Then got a flat but 30mins in opposite direction

Another friend was given a temp house - with a 30m drive to work /school where she was there for 4yrs - she then got a council
Property

Yes rent has gone up as mortgage rates have gone up so the landlord needs to up rent

You may not get a home for years via the council and will be possibly Mike's away from family friends school work

So if there is a flat that's slightly further afield then apply - yes May cost more in petrol costs or if your oldest had an ehcp which I assume he has if goes to a specialist school then yes you should get travel /taxi there costs

Yes I don’t think it’s good advice to say just ‘hang on until evicted’. You must weigh it up.

• waiting for eviction you are then ‘homeless’ but the council only has so much accomodation, and you may find yourself temporarily housed for months in one bedroom.
• then you also lose the good reference from the landlord, and may have to pay some of the court costs.
• So get expert advice from the local council about whether you are likely to be housed or not.

So much depends on where we live. Some local authorities have properties for occupation pretty quickly. Others really struggle to meet their legal duty, hence B&Bs and families in bedsits.

Households where everyone is of working age with no vulnerabilities will not get priority for housing. Households with children, with old people, with people who have disabilities, or other vulnerabilities probably will. But I’d contact Shelter every time, as well as the relevant local authority. Some housing associations let properties separately to the council. Again that differs across the UK.

This is what worries me but if there aren't any properties for me to go to what do I do?

It is optional. A section 21 is merely a request to vacate.
Only a tenant or a court can end a tenancy agreement

I guess you really need expert advice from a local council. There are private renting, or social housing, which is actually available to you though is the question?

So what proportion of S21s are not ended when they get to court?

As per Shelter:

“The court decisionA judge makes a decision at the hearing, or by looking at the information they have.

The judge must give possession back to the landlord if the section 21 notice is valid. This is called an outright possession order.
If the notice is not valid, the judge must dismiss the case.
The judge can also ask you or the landlord to do something specific, like provide more information. This is called 'giving directions'.”

So it is NOT optional to leave? The court can only refuse possession if the S21 is “invalid”… which typically you’d be able to establish in advance?

Here are the reasons it might be rejected:

https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/section_21_eviction/how_to_check_a_section_21_notice_is_valid

They’re formalities, they really don’t offer the tenant any protection other than from when a LL has not followed due process.

Here is the process cited if you choose not to leave after a valid S21 is issued, it reallt doesn’t look hugely appealing and I can’t see any circumstances where it doesn’t end in bailiffs if you don’t leave.

https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/section_21_eviction/staying_after_a_section_21_notice

I thought the problem was the council doesn’t accept a section 21 notice as ending a tenancy and advises people to stay put until there is a court order. If you voluntarily make yourself homeless they have no obligation to house you. So tenants are stuck in a catch 22.

I think this makes it harder for low income families to find tenancies as landlords know it’d harder to get them to leave. Childless professionals are easier as they will find somewhere and aren’t tied to schools etc . It’s just going to get worse over time.

We desperately need to increase the amount of council housing in this country.

@Badbudgeter yes and it’s a terrible suggestion of local authorities to tenants, especially as there was a legal case (I believe, don’t quote me!) which said that a Section 21 notice should in itself be sufficient - not staying until the bailiffs which is a waste of court time, money and also not nice for tenants or LLs to go down that road.

I will never be a LL again. I’ve listened to other countries and many have it so much better, regulated rental housing that balance LL needs with tenant security and capped rents. But it seems to need a lot of investment over time, not something we can just invent now in the UK. But we are not going in the right direction. LLs esp with mortgages, now can’t get interest relief, mortgages rising, I think more regulation is better but it has to be sensible.

Also seems like the tenant is responsible for LL court costs if evicted, so what’s the point staying? Also seems outrageous for local authorities to recommend staying knowing that the tenant is incurring fees.

agree I will also never become a LL again @SpringCherries . I had great tenants but it only takes one bad experience, and I’m not willing to risk it anymore.

And not allow people to buy them!

Don’t blame you for not wishing to risk it in the future.

We paid out nearly £1000 to evict a tenant through the courts.
It took forever and we had to pay the costs up front.

We were advised we could claim the costs and unpaid rent back from the tenant but that would most likely involve an ‘attachment of earnings ‘ which they may pay be required to repay a small amount a month, not worth it for the further costs involved.

So as well as the fact the tenant stayed in the property for months not paying rent, and costs us a fortune in legal fees, the court awarded them a further 28 days before we could legally enter the property.

The Law is very much in the side of the Tenant.

Decent Private Landlord are understandably giving up in their droves.

Thought I’d update on here instead of starting a new thread. I managed to get hold of the LL and was extremely apologetic and explained our situation. He sounded like he couldn’t care less and started talking about bailiffs and references. Then he talked about how the mortgage has gone up by over £200 and he has kids as well. I’m due a cystectomy and c-section in 3 weeks time and right now we have nowhere to go.

I’m so annoyed with the letting agent. They assured my husband and I that the LL is only wanting to sell to an investor and it’s purely transitional so we wouldn’t be going anywhere. Then they told us we’d be safe for a further 6 months after the sale because laws are changing, etc. Two weeks later they served us notice. I told the LL and he said he had no idea why they would say this as the property was on the market for everyone. It was his other property that was sold to an investor.

Have you spoken to Shelter since the last conversation, OP?

He's a nasty character with no morals so that's that.
Any person that chucks a heavily pregnant woman and her family out with nowhere to go is scum. He could give you another 6 months until your baby is born and make you leave then.
It's all business and you have to act accordingly and put yourself first.
Do whatever it takes to make your family a priority in this situation. Exactly the same as he is doing.

Have you spoken to Shelter since the last conversation, OP?

Not yet. I will though. And the council.

His words were, “Do you want a mortgage in future? You need to be out by June.” And that if we ever want to rent privately again we’ll need a reference from him. Despite me telling him we’ve already applied for properties.

If we don’t find anywhere I’m going to beg the council for temporary accommodation. I don’t want this stress. I’m having a c-section and cystectomy in 2-and-a-half weeks.

C-section is on the 4th May now. Was supposed to be at the end of the month. Realise my dates don’t make much sense.