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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To refuse to leave rented property

314 replies

Boymamabee · 20/03/2023 14:16

I’m having an ethical dilemma thanks to my husband…

I’m heavily pregnant (due a c-section next month) and we’ve been served a two month no-fault notice by our landlord (it’s all valid).

We’re struggling to find rented properties within our price range and although we’re at risk of homelessness, the council can’t guarantee temp accommodation before our notice expires. This makes my husband anxious as he says we have no right to stay in a house we don’t own and it’s unfair on the LL whose sale might fall through.

Places for the same amount of rent, or less, than we currently pay are more rural and would cost more fuel. Many of the local schools don’t have specialised facilities for kids with ASD (think rural schools with 20 students and 2 LSAs) and DS LOVES his school!

This is where it gets tricky…

We’ve been advised that if we stay with family or friends before the LL enacts a court possession order, we could be seen as making ourselves “intentionally homeless”. Likewise if we get ourselves into debt/arrears living somewhere we can’t afford.

I’ve proposed we listen to
their advice and stay put for now, but DH thinks it’s selfish and we’ll naturally find another way to make ends meet. He wants to be out before our contract ends and he feels sorry for the LL who’s going through a divorce.

AIBU?

OP posts:
Rafferty10 · 23/03/2023 13:52

This is exactly why l am no longer a LL.

HamBone · 23/03/2023 13:55

Thesharkradar · 23/03/2023 13:40

@HamBone
I would like to see the property market properly regulated so that private landlords have to behave in a responsible way and cannot mess people around, if they can't provide affordable secure stable housing then they are not fit for purpose.

@Thesharkradar As @WhatNoRaisins says though, small businesses will never be able to provide the level of security that a council/HA can.

Businesses get sold, close down, etc. and that impacts people-in this case the OP and her family. I don’t know how anyone could be prevented from closing down their business- perhaps councils could set up schemes to buy private rental properties and not allow them to be turned into owner-occupied?

Thesharkradar · 23/03/2023 14:02

@HamBone and @WhatNoRaisins
I can only conclude that private landlords are inherently not fit for purpose and should not be allowed to exist 🤷

WhatNoRaisins · 23/03/2023 14:08

It's not a good replacement for more secure social housing even if you can potentially get housing benefit.

HamBone · 23/03/2023 14:12

Thesharkradar · 23/03/2023 14:02

@HamBone and @WhatNoRaisins
I can only conclude that private landlords are inherently not fit for purpose and should not be allowed to exist 🤷

@Thesharkradar You might get your wish if interest rates keep rising!

Thesharkradar · 23/03/2023 14:21

HamBone · 23/03/2023 14:12

@Thesharkradar You might get your wish if interest rates keep rising!

Buy-to-let landlordism is predicated upon low interest rates so yes, this could be the end of all that!

Notanevillandlord · 23/03/2023 16:17

nobabiesyet · 23/03/2023 11:58

Well when people complain that they can't find a property to rent think about threads like this. There's already a person going travelling for a year who is not considering renting her property because of issues it will cause. Imagine if she'd rented it for a year - and could give someone a nice place to live for a year, or alternatively get people not willing to move out! What a waste, for her and for some tenants that might have got a good deal. Fewer landlords will result in fewer rental properties and thus drive up rental prices further. Landlords will pick and choose tenants and this will make it much harder for some people to rent. Some people want to rent - it provides flexibility, maybe you are separating and need a house for 6 months or are saving for a house, or are new to an area, etc.

This in droves.

I've read too many of these threads coupled with having my fingers burnt once too many times therefore I no longer rent to people on UC, with children or who don't meet the minimum income criteria.

Yes I sound harsh but my own family is my responsibility. I'm not responsible for my tenants' financial situation. Just as they don't care about mine.

I am a fair landlord but I do all I can to avoid renting to people who would put me in a situation like the OPs.

I prefer to rent to high income singles and couples who only want to stay for a few years. There's a market for people who only want short tenancies.

WombatChocolate · 23/03/2023 16:48

The system doesn’t really work as it stands.

It’s not great for LLs but it’s much worse for tenants.

What tenants want is long term secure housing. However, in the UK there is rarely long term security outside of the social housing sector. Some countries do have this in the private rented sector. Small LLs need a level of flexibility to be able to regain their property. That means that long term contracts if several years won’t work for most smlaller landlords. And even though people debate small LLs for not being able to provide long term security and many lacking expertise, in the UK renters are still highly dependent on this sector as there isn’t enough social housing. Government is dependent on this sector, because otherwise there won’t be enough private rentals to supplement social housing.

People might have zero sympathy for LLs, but many are leaving the market, because they feel it’s harder to make money and because of increased regulation like higher EPC standards. Many will say ‘good’. But if properties are bought by owner occupiers, then where will renters live?

This is te problem….renters need LLs to rent properties to them. If they exit, the loss is far worse for tenants than for the LLs who already have their own homes.

And it’s v well saying what ought to be the system. The thing is, this is the system we have now and won’t be changing anytime soon. So the situation getting worse for LLs will mean it gets even worse for tenants as LLs leave.

Itsbytheby · 23/03/2023 17:37

Notanevillandlord · 23/03/2023 16:17

This in droves.

I've read too many of these threads coupled with having my fingers burnt once too many times therefore I no longer rent to people on UC, with children or who don't meet the minimum income criteria.

Yes I sound harsh but my own family is my responsibility. I'm not responsible for my tenants' financial situation. Just as they don't care about mine.

I am a fair landlord but I do all I can to avoid renting to people who would put me in a situation like the OPs.

I prefer to rent to high income singles and couples who only want to stay for a few years. There's a market for people who only want short tenancies.

Yes absolutely.

We are landlords by circumstance. When we needed to move many years ago it was the best way to do it in our circumstances. We have been renting it out to the same tenant for almost 10 years now which is great, and she gets it from about £300 under market rate. I won't sell as long as she wants to stay there as it's her home, but I'd love to get rid of the house. Finding tenants is a hassle, if soemthing goes wrong it's expensive, we don't make very much on it and the tax is an absolute killer now. And that's without tenants deciding just to stay put so you have the stress and cost of taking them to court. being a landlord, unless maybe you have loads and treat it as a business, is just a nightmare.

But if we sold where would someone like our tenant go? Less and less people want to be landlords so rents are high and choice is low. Counsel provided housing in the area is like golddust. She has 3 kids, gets housing benefits and doesn't have a job that would get her a mortgage. I am pretty sure she would find herself homeless and with very few appealing options.

But yes, I am just a greedy asshole and should sell up and stop hogging housing stock 🙄

Crikeyalmighty · 23/03/2023 18:01

Like tenants, landlords come in all guises- demonising them all is really not a great idea. (We are tenants and good ones too). Our current landlords are a well off couple who bought upwards and chose to keep their lovely renovated 4 bed semi in a very good area for investment reasons and might return to it at some point. They are not arseholes, basically they are us with a bit more luck on the money front! ( we had a business failure at one point which changed our situation even though we earn well) . We are too old to get a mortgage now , but we can rent nice places and I for one don't want landlords put in a position where it no longer makes sense. At the moment we don't want/need a 2 bed flat etc so you can't presume that mass building of them would solve all issues either. In our case ironically bringing back self declare mortgages or life long interest only mortgages would work for us . There are many reasons people can't buy these days and its not good either when people presume we are all feckless shirkers who will trash their place.

WulyJmpr · 23/03/2023 20:29

Interesting article explaining the value of the PRS and also pointing out the government data showing that, whereas in the private rental sector 15% of homes are under-occupied, the figure is 53% for owner occupied homes. Therefore as landlords sell up to home owners, fewer people will be being housed overall:

https://www.nrla.org.uk//news/private-rented-sector-vital-to-economic-and-social-life-of-the-country-says-new-report

Also just my 2 cents but the more everyone attacks landlords (personally, much of the time) and the more unfair admin and costs that are placed on them, the more rentals will disappear.

'Regulating' is kind of pointless as the many already existing good landlords will jump through all the hoops. But they already kept all their inspections, cerificates, and paperwork up to date anyway. News for you...the rogue landlords don't care about being regulated and won't do it so nothing is improved but more costs are piled onto the good landlords.

With interest rates as high as they are, landlords good and bad will find it more worthwhile to sell up and put the money from the property in a bond. They will make much more interest than they would have done in rental returns, and with much less hassle.

Rental supply diminishes further and rents go up. Rental caps brought in? Landlords choose to sell and rental supply diminishes further until the government and society will have an extremely serious problem on their hands.

Private rented sector vital to economic and social life of the country says new report | NRLA

An NRLA-commissioned report by Chamberlain Walker reveals how the private rented sector has a pivotal role to play in the economic and social life of the UK.

https://www.nrla.org.uk/news/private-rented-sector-vital-to-economic-and-social-life-of-the-country-says-new-report

WombatChocolate · 23/03/2023 21:49

I think a key problem is that people often talk about what ‘should’ happen.

In an ideal world there would be lots of social housing available at subsidised rents with secure tenures.
In an ideal world there would be more housing supply generally and it would be cheaper.
In an ideal world more people could afford to buy.
In an ideal world no-one would be given notice unless they did things like not pay rent or caused damage.
In an ideal world it would be possible to let your property and have it back whenever you needed to sell.
In an ideal world there woukd be no tenants who stopped paying or damaged houses.
In an ideal world d the court system would quickly deal with dodgy LLs and dodgy tenants.

But we don’t live in that situation. We have to work within and live within the housing market as it exists, and extreme solutions that people suggest such as no-one should be allowed to own 2 properties, or there shouldn’t be any private LLs, or no BTL landlords, or no giving notice…..just aren’t going to happen. It seems very hard to for some people to think about the wider issues or the challenges facing tenants or the issues facing LLs. Deciding the ‘other side’ are simply evil is naive and unhelpful, but trying to understand the challenges facing both tenants and LLs is necessary….both need each other.

I think society is becoming more and more polarised. It’s due to many many things. The private rented sector is vital because without it there won’t be enough rental properties for the many who want to or need to rent. Tenants will always need somewhere to live. At the same time, for most LLs, there is a degree of choice about whether to be a LL or not. If the numbers don’t stack up or it feels too unreliable or too difficult, LLs will sell up and put their money into savings or some other investment that is less effort. They might be a bit sorry to do that, but they have homes and their lives will continue. But for tenants with a reducing rental stock….well the consequences are far far more severe. Already rents are rising and people are finding it’s almost impossible in some areas to get a place.

A crisis is on the verge of happening and already happening for lots. More and more won’t be able to afford rent. And as more people become homeless or on the verge of it, there won’t suddenly be a big increase in social housing. That is what people would like, but that’s not going to be there in the next 5 years if ever. And yet all those people who want and need to rent still need somewhere to live. So those private LLs are needed, whether people consider them the spawn of the devil or not.

It needs to be worthwhile for LLs. No doubt there are lots who couldn’t ever really afford it and relied on low interest rates, and really do need to exit the market, as the rents don’t cover higher mortgage charges, all the costs invovled in running a rental and leave something to make it worthwhile. Over time, there will be less private LLs with 1 property which is heavily mortgaged. There will be fewer LLs with more properties who own them all or mostly outright and have worked out the numbers and can cope when interest rates rise or regulations change and increase the costs….to a point. But as that shift happens, probably less properties overall will be rented out and more move into private hands. That will still cause problems for tenants with high rents and under supply.

If the government isn’t prepared to build or buy housing so it can be social housing with secure tenures and possibly subsidised rents, then the private rentals sector will always be vital. And the government don’t want to build or create more social housing because of the vast costs invovled in doing that and because it doesn’t fit with any party ideology. So people are stuck with the private rental market.

For LLs this means that the downsides and risks of void periods, risks of tenants who don’t pay or damage the property and are hard to get out, of costs which wipe out any short term profit, of the threat of new and expensive regulations ….all remain. Many people find it hard to sympathise or understand these issues.

For tenants, the downsides of high rents, insecure tenancies into the long term which mean having to move frequently when you don’t want to, difficulties in getting new properties, poorly maintained properties all remain. I think most people acknowledge these difficulties, although many are surprisingly unsympathetic to the impact of insecure tenancies into the long term.

We don’t live in a society where an affordable and secure home into the long term is a given unfortunately. Without doubt, it’s worse by far for tenants than LLs. But LLs individually are rarely the key to the problems tenants face. The system itself has so many inherent flaws within it.

Crikeyalmighty · 23/03/2023 22:35

@WombatChocolate incredibly well put (and I say this as a tenant) -my own view is we need to look at places like Germany and Sweden for this and there are a lot of developments built by pension/insurance funds. We've actually got 1 in Bath. - not particularly cheap but in line with rents here, the terms are much more secure, you can decorate, you can have a small pet. I think we need to give these companies and also those who were heavily invested in commercial property real tax incentives to develop social housing at social rent levels (surely saving a ton of housing benefit too) . These shouldn't just be flats but family houses too- put some rules in about standards- license initially for a year and then inspect every year, if they are being badly kept , rubbish in gardens etc etc or not paying the rent, you lose it and have to take pot luck out in the non social market. We need to stop building these student mini hotels and let students use halls and shared houses again - it won't kill them at 18! Prioritise land for post student world .

Snoken · 24/03/2023 13:19

WombatChocolate · 23/03/2023 21:49

I think a key problem is that people often talk about what ‘should’ happen.

In an ideal world there would be lots of social housing available at subsidised rents with secure tenures.
In an ideal world there would be more housing supply generally and it would be cheaper.
In an ideal world more people could afford to buy.
In an ideal world no-one would be given notice unless they did things like not pay rent or caused damage.
In an ideal world it would be possible to let your property and have it back whenever you needed to sell.
In an ideal world there woukd be no tenants who stopped paying or damaged houses.
In an ideal world d the court system would quickly deal with dodgy LLs and dodgy tenants.

But we don’t live in that situation. We have to work within and live within the housing market as it exists, and extreme solutions that people suggest such as no-one should be allowed to own 2 properties, or there shouldn’t be any private LLs, or no BTL landlords, or no giving notice…..just aren’t going to happen. It seems very hard to for some people to think about the wider issues or the challenges facing tenants or the issues facing LLs. Deciding the ‘other side’ are simply evil is naive and unhelpful, but trying to understand the challenges facing both tenants and LLs is necessary….both need each other.

I think society is becoming more and more polarised. It’s due to many many things. The private rented sector is vital because without it there won’t be enough rental properties for the many who want to or need to rent. Tenants will always need somewhere to live. At the same time, for most LLs, there is a degree of choice about whether to be a LL or not. If the numbers don’t stack up or it feels too unreliable or too difficult, LLs will sell up and put their money into savings or some other investment that is less effort. They might be a bit sorry to do that, but they have homes and their lives will continue. But for tenants with a reducing rental stock….well the consequences are far far more severe. Already rents are rising and people are finding it’s almost impossible in some areas to get a place.

A crisis is on the verge of happening and already happening for lots. More and more won’t be able to afford rent. And as more people become homeless or on the verge of it, there won’t suddenly be a big increase in social housing. That is what people would like, but that’s not going to be there in the next 5 years if ever. And yet all those people who want and need to rent still need somewhere to live. So those private LLs are needed, whether people consider them the spawn of the devil or not.

It needs to be worthwhile for LLs. No doubt there are lots who couldn’t ever really afford it and relied on low interest rates, and really do need to exit the market, as the rents don’t cover higher mortgage charges, all the costs invovled in running a rental and leave something to make it worthwhile. Over time, there will be less private LLs with 1 property which is heavily mortgaged. There will be fewer LLs with more properties who own them all or mostly outright and have worked out the numbers and can cope when interest rates rise or regulations change and increase the costs….to a point. But as that shift happens, probably less properties overall will be rented out and more move into private hands. That will still cause problems for tenants with high rents and under supply.

If the government isn’t prepared to build or buy housing so it can be social housing with secure tenures and possibly subsidised rents, then the private rentals sector will always be vital. And the government don’t want to build or create more social housing because of the vast costs invovled in doing that and because it doesn’t fit with any party ideology. So people are stuck with the private rental market.

For LLs this means that the downsides and risks of void periods, risks of tenants who don’t pay or damage the property and are hard to get out, of costs which wipe out any short term profit, of the threat of new and expensive regulations ….all remain. Many people find it hard to sympathise or understand these issues.

For tenants, the downsides of high rents, insecure tenancies into the long term which mean having to move frequently when you don’t want to, difficulties in getting new properties, poorly maintained properties all remain. I think most people acknowledge these difficulties, although many are surprisingly unsympathetic to the impact of insecure tenancies into the long term.

We don’t live in a society where an affordable and secure home into the long term is a given unfortunately. Without doubt, it’s worse by far for tenants than LLs. But LLs individually are rarely the key to the problems tenants face. The system itself has so many inherent flaws within it.

This is the best and most balanced post on this whole thread! I agree with every single word.

FloatingRodger · 05/04/2023 08:07

How's it going op @Boymamabee ?

caringcarer · 05/04/2023 09:50

Ermweareemergencyservices · 21/03/2023 23:59

Would anyone ever rent to you again if you had a court ordered eviction on your record? Do you have to declare such things?

A credit search will show any past convictions. As a LL I'd never rent to anyone who refused to leave if I had presented a legal notice to vacate.

caringcarer · 05/04/2023 10:08

WomanStanleyWoman2 · 23/03/2023 13:05

All very well for people who can afford to buy - and people who want to buy. Not everyone falls into these categories. As for your comment that “Landlords will have to sell to owner occupiers” - they’re just as if not more likely to sell to those landlords who are remaining in the market, and therefore will have an even greater level of control of the rental market in that area.

I also wonder how these people expressing delight at the idea of significantly fewer landlords in the market will feel when they come to sell their first house/flat and move up the ladder. Suddenly there will be less potential purchasers around to fund their next move…

I'm a LL and have ten houses I let out to families. Some have been with me for 12 years now. Others just want a year or two to save their deposit and then go on to buy their own home. If I buy a new property I have in past several times just bought a house with tenants Insitu. Obviously I check they pay rent on time and don't annoy neighbours. It's a good solution because a FTB will want to live in house themselves so have to evict tenants. I want to rent out anyway so may as well keep current tenants. I do an inspection to see if anything needs upgrading and check tenants will agree to work being carried out. Then crack on. I don't understand posters who want LL out of market as where would some families live? I am fair to tenants and have only had one bad tenant who trashed the place. The rest have been fine.

Crikeyalmighty · 05/04/2023 10:41

@caringcarer it's the same with LL, we rent high end houses(usually when owners away with work for 4 or 5 years) - all you hear is about badLL- I've honestly only had 1 bad one in last 12 years- and that was a huge London property company who used 1 handyman guy who could do everything and all over the south of England- the main problem was getting any issues sorted which when you are paying £2200 rent is somewhat galling. On the whole though my LL have been good because they want these nice houses kept in good order

Boymamabee · 05/04/2023 15:34

@FloatingRodger no luck. Been turned down for two properties (both 2 bed flats). Everything else is too expensive. Just fyi husband earns under 2k a month and we’re subsidised by UC (although I worked up until Christmas I experienced complications with pregnancy and had to leave. Wasn’t eligible for sick pay). I think I’m willing to tough out temp accommodation for possible long-term security but husband isn’t.

OP posts:
FloatingRodger · 05/04/2023 17:20

I'm sorry to hear that op. Fingers crossed something works out.

LaurieFairyCake · 05/04/2023 17:24

What are you likely to be offered in your area in terms of council housing?

Boymamabee · 05/04/2023 22:15

@LaurieFairyCake a 2-bed property but the council are also renting off private landlords due to housing shortages.

I spoke to a mum at the park the other day. She was in the same position as us. Had to stay with family (overcrowding) for a few months then in temp accommodation. A year later the council homed her.

I can understand why people think I’m
being fussy. Just for context, we live in one of the busiest towns in a very rural county. DS’s school receives the most funding due to its location and SEN facilities. He’s thriving there and has a brilliant relationship with some of the staff. I’ve asked the school and HV for a letter to give to the council. The council might not care but I have to try.

We’re still looking privately but have been turned down twice this week (both 2-bed flats).

I appreciate that it’s not our house but I’ve decided I can’t make myself intentionally homeless before the council.

OP posts:
LaurieFairyCake · 06/04/2023 11:29

Phew 😮‍💨

Go for it! Your child needs what he needs - if he's got provision now you literally have to move heaven and earth to keep it

ChickenDhansak82 · 06/04/2023 11:41

Boymamabee · 05/04/2023 22:15

@LaurieFairyCake a 2-bed property but the council are also renting off private landlords due to housing shortages.

I spoke to a mum at the park the other day. She was in the same position as us. Had to stay with family (overcrowding) for a few months then in temp accommodation. A year later the council homed her.

I can understand why people think I’m
being fussy. Just for context, we live in one of the busiest towns in a very rural county. DS’s school receives the most funding due to its location and SEN facilities. He’s thriving there and has a brilliant relationship with some of the staff. I’ve asked the school and HV for a letter to give to the council. The council might not care but I have to try.

We’re still looking privately but have been turned down twice this week (both 2-bed flats).

I appreciate that it’s not our house but I’ve decided I can’t make myself intentionally homeless before the council.

You're not being selfish.

An S21 eviction notice just means that the LL is starting the process to get their property back.

If the LL wanted to sell then they should have issued the S21 when the property went on the market. Instead they chose to keep tenants and thus rental income for as long as possible which is a risky strategy.

You cannot magic up suitable housing so just keep applying for anything suitable. If nothing turns up then stay put and keep looking and keep paying rent as normal.

The LL will then apply to court, the court will then evict you and the LL can then send in bailiffs.

When the bailiffs turn up the council will have no choice but to house your but be prepared for some grotty temporary accommodation or something miles away which may then require you changing schools.

I would communicate with your LL and agent and tell them you're having no luck so far finding something suitable so have no choice but to stay put for not. Ask them if they can find something for you! If they want you to move then it's also in their best interest to help you out.

nobabiesyet · 12/04/2023 13:46

Ask them if they can find something for you! If they want you to move then it's also in their best interest to help you out.
Add message

Wow you think it's the landlord's responsbility to find alternative accommodation - unreal.
.