Am I stupidly poor? Or living in the real world?

[Chunkythighss]

Just off the back of another post…
people commenting that they will have to live off £1900 AFTER paying the mortgage and how this is going to be a struggle.

nearly £2000 a month extra.

This is more than I earn a month and pay rent, bills, etc… yet people are saying they’d struggle to live on this after bills?

Am I massively poor or is this normal? 🙈

This isn't just high versus low income, but practicalities and necessities. We have a good income and spend £2k most months on bills, food, dentist, streaming, cleaning products, beer, transport, going out, discretionaries, even including a cleaner. We do spend more for holidays, major house repair or other one-offs, but those costs would be covered by the cleaner alone. The big differences I see are that we have no car and minimal childcare costs; while £1900 seems fine, I see how someone rural with little kids and a full-time job will struggle on that. If someone in a city with kids over 3 is still struggling to make £1900 work in absence of a recent new boiler or ceiling, then given we aren't remotely frugal I do eyeroll and think they probably could try harder, because there is a lot of flexibility there.

I'm on a low income and have never worried about not being able to feed my kids as I've got really good at being poor. I've practiced my whole life. However if I was rich and became poor I would imagine that's incredibly challenging especially since my outgoings would be so high.

After reading mumsnet I realised my salary of 38K is on embarrassing scale and earning this little is definitely a sign of massive life failure. It might be the truth because because I have a PhD but work in poorly paid academia..
But I really wonder what do these "combined income of 150K" families do for the living

@Chunkythighss - so looking at your posts, you don't have enough money for food and sometimes have to put it on credit cards and can't afford the dentist. That sounds to me like you are poor. How would you define being poor/badly off if that doesn't fit the definition?

Here is where each of us stands in terms of income according to ONS.

Of note: "Figure 3: Average income of the poorest fifth of people fell by 3.8% per year on average between financial year ending (FYE) 2017 and FYE 2020"

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyear2020

Our council tax and energy bills are almost £1000 alone
add insurances, car costs, fuel, kids wrap around & holiday care, internet. We’re averaging at least £1600pm before food and any discretionary spending.

bigger houses cost more, childcare is extortionate.

I'm on a low income and have never worried about not being able to feed my kids as I've got really good at being poor. I've practiced my whole life. However if I was rich and became poor I would imagine that's incredibly challenging especially since my outgoings would be so high.

You may have "practise" but that doesn't mean you magic money out of nowhere.

Someone on 10k a month can easily cut back and still afford several luxuries - I really don't have sympathy for anyone who would find it challenging to live on such a massive income.

Well in that case @Ionlydrinkondaysendinginy I urge you not to worry too much about our hypothetical £10k per month earner . As I said earlier, someone on that income will generally be able to find a similar paying role even if it’s a bit lower paid than they’re used to.

That job loss would only be “massively life changing” if it was a permanent loss of income which realistically would probably only be as a result of serious, long term illness/disability. Even then, our £10k per month earner is more likely to have mortgage protection, serious illness cover and so on than a person who loses their £24k salary job. It’s not impossible that Ms 10k a month could end up in dire straits and have to choose between heating and eating or even lose their home but it’s far less likely for her than for a low earner.

So you wouldn't have sympathy for someone who lost their job resulting in losing their home and their kids being pulled out of school and all their activities

Our monthly outgoings BEFORE food, including mortgage and all bills and insurances are £3,000.
Admittedly a third of that is childcare which will reduce dramatically next year when youngest qualifies for 30 free hours. But when I wrote it all down when we moved house it shocked the hell out of me.
When I added in all the usual things for a our family of four including clothes, shoes, food, swimming lessons, Saturday football club and maybe one family meal out a month I worked out we needed £4,000 in our joint account a month before any additional "fun".
So yeah it's all relative. And if one of us lost our job we'd have to immediately pull our DD out of nursery to stay afloat.
However the cost of bills (but not council tax) for all of us will reduce over the next year. Food will continue to expensive until in about 2 decades we realise our stupidity and finally rejoin the EU.
But that's a whole other debate.

My direct debits come to £2040 a month. Then I have food and other subscriptions, kids clubs, driving lessons for oldest etc. If its £1900 after the mortgage I couldn't do it but if its £1900 after all other bills then I could.

Yes and no. A lot of people on high incomes need to be more financially responsible. They have the means so they need to plan better. Spending every penny as it comes in when it is not an economic necessity is irresponsible. You don't do it, I don't do it, why are we giving those with high incomes a pass?

We have a similar amount left over outgoings, probably about 1.6. We are trying to save it (getting increasingly difficult) and the reason we have it is because we live in a flat instead of a house and do free activities. We have always been a bit tight. Our home looks shite and I probably look a bit scruffy too. Meanwhile some people in debt look very wealthy.

We do rent, so while we get an increase, its not 4-500 a month after interest rates go up with a mortgage, and I have frozen my butt off sometimes when I have been home alone. I think some people are struggling now because they had a certain lifestyle before the COL crisis and now that their disposable income has been decimated it is hard to wind that down. Some people are just not getting paid enough and have been massively let down by our economic system which only supports wealthy people.

We have both worked full time through bringing up our kids. It has been difficult as we have paid a lot of childcare (still 600 pm even with 'free' hours), but I'm glad we have now. It has been quite hard to watch families that have lovely lifestyles with posh cars, lovely homes and nice exotic holidays even with one parent not working or only PT, but going without that has meant we are not in debt and struggling now.

I don't think Mumsnet is that representative of the UK though. Some are people who have high earning professions, some are people who are genuinely struggling, some are older people who have paid off mortgage and some are just fantasists that are just downright lying. Very few people on here seem to have both parents working in average careers. You can sometimes feel very poor or very well off depending on which thread you read.

I thought the same as OP, obviously what I think of as luxuries are necessities to some people, I am single and retired and have no mortgage but live off just over £1000 a month, quite comfortably. I don't have holidays or a gym membership, for exercise I walk, garden and exercise at home.
I couldn't understand the thread mentioned, about buying a house for £700,00 or so, and whether they could afford it, most replies were saying it wasn't possible, with so little spare money, but surely the answer is just to buy a cheaper house?

@Maverickess

*One thing I've learned about MN when it comes to income, if you're the 'squeezed middle' then those things are essential and deserved - if you are on a low income in non professional job then they're extravagant luxuries that you have to work hard for and not expect handed to you on a plate, even if you work ft in a job that benefits society with actual physical work rather than the tax tag that comes with a large salary (like a care assistant for example).

Someone asked here a while ago who the squeezed middle are. My reply was that they're the people who have spent years telling people that it's their own fault they're poor because they don't try/work hard enough and preaching about choices and personal responsibility, and now things have got tough enough to affect them, suddenly it's all not fair and nothing to do with choices or personal responsibility.*

Good post. I do hope the "squeezed middle" reflect on what you've said and feel ashamed.

Our. Imbibed income is over 150, DH is a teacher and I work in a marcomms role in construction. Friends with similar higher incomes work in recruitment, one couple has just sold their advertising business for several business, another couple in our group one works in procurement the other in it project management and they are on more like 200k.

"Very few people on here seem to have both parents working in average careers. You can sometimes feel very poor or very well off depending on which thread you read."

This is very true.

Yanbu x

£1900 to live on after a mortgage has to be paid is not necessarily easy.

Currently food is costing us as a family of 4 between £150 and £200 a week. That's shopping at aldi and Lidl and no alcohol.

Council tax is £160 a month

Gas and electric was £350

Then we have mobile phones, WiFi, water rates, petrol, car insurance, car tax, public transport costs.

Then all the ad hoc stuff like house repairs, gifts

£1900 is easily doable but it's not exactly lavish living.

What I struggle to understand is the posters who come on here to say they take home £1000 a month yet put money in savings and manage to go on holiday

@cocksstrideintheevening ok, but you do realise this is actually quite rare, don't you?

Only 8 per cent of households in the UK have a gross income over £100,000

Because the op was saying about how £1900 isn't enough spare for some people to live on which for me is loads but someone with high outgoings it wouldn't be. Reading this thread people on here are saying they have outgoings of £3000 for bills alone as my bills are £700 ish a month and this is what I mean when I say its irrelevant what you earn as it usually reflects your outgoings

@Chunkythighss why is this so shocking to you that you needed to create your own thread? then when people offer their views/explanation you say youre not wanting a debate? Lol what.

Is it so alarming to you that people live different lives and have different expenses?

There was a time when I earnt a fairly low wage in a junior position of a professional career. I think I took home about £1500. My boss of 30+ years experience on me, who was wonderful and pushing me to excel in the industry trusted me with a lot including what she earnt/what car to get her kids to learn to drive in etc. She took home about £4000. That was almost 3 times what I did. It seemed just absurd to me.

I was "richer" on £1500/month than someone on £4000. She had a SAHD with a seasonal job which when he did work would get about £500-1000 only perhaps 3-4 months a year. She had 4 kids (3 with SEN). She worked long hours. She needed childcare, extensively when her DH worked away but even when he was around as he volunteered. I , on the other hand, was young and single. I flatshared, after rent/bills etc still had £1000ish each month. I saved that for a deposit. She definitely had less per month than I did for herself.

I now take home about £2200. However, have a house to run, am married, bills have rocketed. Pay quite a lot on my mortgage. At the moment I have about £400 each month that I save.

I can fully believe that people can be on very high and very low incomes yet what they actually "have" is very different. I earn very similar to my sibling who WFH. I have to commute and have to drive - circa 120 miles each day. I have spent years in the professional career. Sibling, earns similar on paper - takes home £2200 ish but without the expenses I have. I'd guess probably has £1200+ to spare each month.

Its all relative. Annoyed at myself for taking this time out to explain...

On the other hand you then have posters who say that you can't possibly live in London on anything less than 250k a year

It's all very odd

Bills could easily be £1900. Electric, water, council tax, phones, oil, gas, health insurance, savings, food, car repayment, lunches, fuel, transport, nursery, there are loads of things. Then stuff like gym, dentist, presents, dry cleaning, holidays, days out, pets, charitable donations, god the list is endless surely

It's interesting what people consider as essential outgoings. If and when your earnings drop, you realign this. You don't need health insurance, savings, gym, presents, dry cleaning, holidays, days out, pets or charitable donations.

If you need a car, you might well have to sell on the expensive one and buy an old banger. And yes, it will break down more and cost more to run in the long run, but it won't require expensive monthly payments. Which is how people who are poor stay poor. Lunches, well you need them but you can make packed lunches. Dentist - well you would hope they'd be listed as essential but when the budget gets tight you can do without - just look at the DIY dentistry kits in pharmacies.

It's really weird how some people are so disconnected and sheltered from this. You might think you need a gym membership for health reasons but if you're scraping money together for food, you'll just go for a bloody walk. Or not, you know, what with the other concerns and stresses affecting your health. And yes, you might need a good, reliable car. But you won't get one if you can't afford it.

Sometimes Mumsnet reeks of middle class entitlement.

This. 'gym membership might be essential for health reasons'?
Utter. B. S.