Should childcare be paid for and other benefits given just for having a child/children?

[Sunshine236]

Does everyone think childcare should be paid for?

It's controversial but why do some people feel entitled to be monetarily supplemented because they’ve had a child?

It’s surely a lifestyle choice and people should ensure they can afford to have children?

For sure there should absolutely be a safety net for those who have had children and circumstances change seeing them need urgent support, but I’ve read people earning £100k are receiving some kind of support each month and now we're looking to provide further free childcare.

There are so many other issues such as social care, NHS funding etc that need funding which money could go towards, rather than supplementing people who are already receiving a decent salary just because they’ve had a child/children?

I’m a net contributor. My taxes fund healthcare and education for children, child benefit, child tax credit, statutory maternity leave, and funded early years provision. My not having kids reduces competition faced by yours for school places, healthcare services, and other help.

I don’t, and have never, qualified for a single benefit as an adult despite being pretty close to the breadline for a decade or so.

I don’t resent any of this. We live in a society and I benefit generally from an educated, healthy younger generation.

What I do resent is being told that I’m contributing nothing and should be taxed more accordingly. Childless women often feel like second class citizens to begin with. If a narrative started along these lines then I’d seriously consider emigrating to somewhere that doesn’t regard me as a useless burden simply because my uterus was defective.

As a mother of three, I absolutely agree.
Of six friends from school, two don't have kids. They work. They have caring roles. They add to society just by dint of being them. They don't need to have made a baby or taken on custody of someone else's to be worthy or of value.
One friend has 1 child. Is she just a little bit of value compared to my friends raising two kids each? Do I get a special reward cos my egg split so I have kids to raise?
No.
I'm quite happy to take advantage of the tax paid and the services provided by Fitz whilst I'm not working, and I'm happy for my kids to work and pay taxes to support her in turn when she's too old to work. That's how society works. Not by giving out special procreation stickers to the worthy.

Thank you @SleepingStandingUp - appreciate that.

I’m happy to pay so that kids get the best start in life and flourish. I don’t agree with incentivising people to have kids because I know what it’s like to be raised by people who shouldn’t have done it. I also dislike the idea of creating another upside down pyramid to tackle the one we already have.

But kids who are already here shouldn’t be in poverty or not helped just because their parents can’t or won’t support them fully themselves. It’s a privilege to be able to pay taxes towards that.

You might say that is natural selection, though. Those incapable of preparing to be parents simply don't become parents, a win-win for our species.

Better than the current scenario where it seems the least competent, productive and prepared are producing the most offspring.

So only wealthy people will be able to have kids? And you see no issues whatsoever with it? “Natural selection”, hmm?
How many people do you think will be able to save enough in advance for childcare and maternity leave, while paying bills/ rent/ saving for a deposit?

I see your point. I think child benefit might be seen as an incentive to have kids, but subsidized childcare is more of an incentive for parents (mostly mothers) to return to work earlier and start paying into the system again.
It creates more equality in my opinion. I strongly oppose the idea of only well off people being able to have kids.
That doesn’t mean that I think that having kids should should release parents from all financial responsibility.
I also disagree with the idea that childless people should pay more in taxes.

@inamarina I think we pretty much agree on this.

“Better than the current scenario where it seems the least competent, productive and prepared are producing the most offspring.”

What evidence do you have for this rather extreme view? Happily, there is plenty of evidence to counter it, I’ve actually taken the liberty of linking some below for you! I hope this helps to broaden your mind beyond your current prejudice against those people who are “producing the most offspring”.

Average age of first time mothers in the U.K. is 31:
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/conceptionandfertilityrates/bulletins/childbearingforwomenbornindifferentyearsenglandandwales/2020

A global study where data were examined from responses of over 400 women from the U.K. examining why they prefer to have children in their 30s as opposed to earlier - the most common response was ‘I am developing my career’:
academic.oup.com/humrep/article/37/11/2611/6751717

A study of over 2000 adults in the U.K. that concluded they aim to earn £37k PA prior to starting a family (£5k above average salary for all ages in U.K.):
www.evelyn.com/press-centre/all-press-releases/uk-adults-aim-to-earn-37k-before-starting-a-family/

Btw your references to natural selection and our “species” is giving off strong 1940s Germany vibes.

I agree with this entirely. It would be abhorrent to tax people for not having children. Of course childless people contribute so much to society and have value and worth.

However, it is equally abhorrent to reduce children to a “lifestyle choice”, and to suggest that society should have no burden for paying and raising them.

Btw your references to natural selection and our “species” is giving off strong 1940s Germany vibes.

I‘ve noticed that too.

Should people who've not had DCs get the state pension?

It's someone else who's done the work and sacrifice for their DCs to pay that person's pension.

This is where you'll end up if we stop all social security for children.

The reducing birth rate is an emergency,

You don't have to be wealthy to save. Just hardworking, diligent, prudent and capable of delayed gratification.

Perhaps people in future will have to choose between a house deposit and having a child. No one is promised everything they want in life. As the planet shrinks with an ever-growing human population, resources like land and dwellings (not to mention food and fuel) will naturally become more scarce/more competitive to obtain.

Even as the need for human labour dwindles via technology and the climate change renders more areas uninhabitable.

The brief post-war blip of the 20th century was an unprecedented time of prosperity. Anyone who thinks that is going to continue is misleading themselves. Resources are growing ever more scarce and people are going to have to accept hard trade-offs when deciding which direction they want their lives to take.

There is no shortage of people on this planet, let alone an emergency. Think globally.

People like me will have paid into the state pension system for 50 years by the time we retire, with no breaks. Can parents say that? People like me haven't burdened the educational system, the health care system, the benefits system with our non-existent offspring. And so on.

The offspring of today of course will provide the cash flow for our state pensions, hopefully with a bit of gratitude for the bounty they and their parents received courtesy of us net taxpayers.

@ZeldaWillTellYourFortune ODFOD

@ZeldaWillTellYourFortune you seem to have very specific views on the topic of who should have children or having children. I asked this earlier and am really interested. What led you to not have any children of your own? Do you mind sharing?

I'd love to know what exactly this mythical break is that parents get?

So will the rest of us! I took stat maternity and that was it!

@ZeldaWillTellYourFortune you burdened the educational system, the health care system, the benefits system with yourself mate. And you are burdening all of society with your ignorance and prejudice.

So the world will be full of baby borises and baby Rees moggs as their dads know how to play the system to make themselves rich by impoverishing everyone else. Plus of course the people who will have children anyway who don't think about the future The hardworking sensible kind people will die out. What fun😀

Exactly. It annoys me that we contribute a lot more in tax than we’re ever likely to get back out while many, many others don’t pay anything at all and also use the services paid for by taxpayers such as me that I don’t even use myself. I will also be entitled to a pension far later than the boomers (if one is even there for me at all by then).

We also use private schools and health insurance and have never claimed benefits. But it is what it is, no point complaining.

Perhaps try ways if connecting with other human beings, your community and the world so that you don't resent being part if a shared humanity so strongly, but begin to recognise that we're all interconnected.

All working parents should be able to get free wraparound, quality childcare. If we want a thriving economy (cough) then we need all fit adults to be able to work. One parent can obviously choose to be SAH, until the youngest child is in FT education. With the current cost of childcare, many parents have to be SAH and on benefits, this is not good for anyone. I would legislate for all employers over a certain size to have to have onsite nurseries. Then I would bring back all the Sure Start centres we once had, and include a nursery, breakfast and after school club there too. Then, in my Utopia, I would have every school open a free breakfast club, and after-school club (for working parents), with free on site prepared school lunches for all.

Forgot to say ... Yes, parents choose (usually) to have children, but actually they are doing us all a great favour. Without the young people growing up, training to be economically active members of our communities, what would happen? The childfree, through choice, rely on those of us who are parents to provide them with their nurses, doctors, mechanics, baristas, Uber drivers etc. It's regularly thrown at parents - you chose to have them, you pay for them, why should I pay for your children? We all should be happy to pay for children because they are the future, they are the ones who will be looking after us all in years to come, creating wealth for our country. Value children, even if they're not yours, and help give them the best life they can have.

I agree that lots of young people would love to come here and work. However aren't you overlooking the fact that the same demographic also like to start families. Or are you suggesting that they retun to their home countries if this happens, possibly breaking up a family?

Nobody leaves their home country to work in a care home for a minimum wage or just above if they could get a better paid job elsewhere. Just be honest your suggestion of immigrants comming here to do low paid jobs will cause an underclass of immigrants.

Many will be from former colonies. Many will be well educated in their home countries and not reaching their full potential here. If they come here more than likely it is to send money back hohome so not fully contributing to our economy over and above taxes. If they are in low paid jobs how do they afford to pay for housing, food, utilities, travel and god forbid they may want to be able to treat themselves or go on holiday. Without any government assistance through benefits these things are not possible and then doesn't that just defeat the point of subsidising childcare for people?

The real issue is that people are poorly paid. Pay a real living wage and people will not need to rely so heavily on benefits.

As a higher rate tax payer I do not begrudge paying taxes towards children who are the future of our society whether that's for childcare, clubs or education etc. However, I do resent having to subsidise employers who don't pay people enough money to live on. If your business model relies on you paying people badly then you shouldn't be in business.

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