To be worried about childcare reform Bill?

[NurseryNurse10]

I work in the nursery sector. Many of you know that it's proposed that the ratio will increase from 1/4 for two year olds to 1/5.
Aibu to say this will be the final nail in the coffin for nurseries and that it also doesn't solve the qualified staffing issue ? Many are unaware that legally you have to have a level 3 and a level 2 in EACH room. Nurseries are having massive issues recruiting qualified staff so this is surely going to make the issue even worse ?

The government are very out of touch with reality. I work in a preschool and we are seeing a very sharp rise in children with additional needs and/or speech and language issues. These children need more resources and more attention so the ratios are moving the wrong way. This is going to put extra strain on staff. So called “funded” places never actually cover the cost per child so there will be less money coming in too. Less places available too when people start getting their 30 hour’s worth. So many settings have closed in recent years and this will make it worse.

And on top of managing the needs of five 2 year olds (feeding them, changing them, delivering a curriculum for them), they also expect a three paragraph observation per day for each of them. Lol.

All within the funded hours, of course. There’ll be no extra payments for paperwork. Can’t fit the paperwork in? Don’t be silly - you’re only looking after kids.

Hopefully they will do away with Ofsted and make it the responsibility of the local authorities to inspect like it used to be. At least then the local authorities will be doing something to earn their slice of the very meagre pie.

Who expects a 3 paragraph ob every day? Certainly not Ofsted!

Well, three paragraphs might be an exaggeration but Ofsted still expect reams of paperwork, no matter what they now claim. My nursery was inspected last month and the observations were scrutinised. The inspector also criticised us because the parents had not added their own observations to the kids’ online journals! Naturally that was our fault.

I work in a preschool too and absolutely echo what you say about the sharp rise in children with SEN and / or speech delay. There is far less SEN provision available where they can be helped alongside preschool, thanks to budget cuts leading to closures. The change of ratio is going to lead to more crowd control and trying to keep everyone safe, than the individual education and support that these children need.

It's a mess

But they don't, they have totally moved away from reams if paperwork and it's now all about the 3 iiis (intent, implementation & impact) Key workers simply need to ptove they know their children very well. All that is needed is a sentence & a pic once a week. Takes 2 minutes.

I can only tell you what our experience was of an Ofsted inspection last month. They carry out joint observations now as part of the inspection - ie, they do an observation, you do an observation and then you compare. The inspector’s one page observation is, of course, the ‘correct’ one.

Even a two line observation and a photograph once a week is too much to keep on top of. The one page observation held up by Ofsted as the required standard is insane.

@Abracadabra12345 we now do the speech screening that SLT used to do.

Even uploading meal charts and the like are time consuming. Not to mention all the observations.
As I mentioned before the nursery I work at (Another chain) have also got plans to implement it. I am shocked and also can see many staff leaving because of the extra added work and therefore stress on minimum wage.
Good point about the SEN increase as well. In the pre school room I am thinking of there are 3 with severe SEN. They take up a lot of the staffs time and energy. Yet we are expected to cope with that and the other kids. Its a joke and something the government again, fail to address.

am I right in that the 30 hours are term time only? I imagine nurseries and childminders will increase the costs per hour of the 13 other weeks significantly and to increase the costs of consumables to try and cover the low rate of government funding. It might not mean parents saving much money after all.

@Morecrimblecrumble What your nursery is doing is illegal (albeit quite common). You should complain to your local Council about this - they are allowed to charge for food, nappies, trips, but NOT a general subsidy.
My kids are 1 and 2. They are at a nursery that does offer the 30 hours free (inc food), but that means people like me are paying masses more as a subsidy. Under the current system, it would be a real money spinner to only be open to under 3s. You would not get any grants/free hours, but you could still charge less because you wouldn't be asking parents of younger ones to subsidize the older ones as happens now.

Money spinner? You must be joking. The ratio for babies and 2 year olds is 3:1 and 4:1. With minimum wage set to increase to £10.42, nurseries will barely break even by taking babies, never mind make a profit.

It used to be that you accepted the losses with the under 3’s because the income for the over 3’s made up for it. Now that parents expect free childcare at age 3, you can’t break even with this age group either.

At almost every nursery under 3 are massively subsiding the over 3s, because the 30 hours are funded at around 2/3 the cost of implementing. I'm paying 2 lots of childcare with no help PLUS I'm subsiding the older kids who do get help.

I know it is illegal, I did speak to the council and at that point our invoices changes from ‘top up’ to ‘consumables’ at exactly the same amount. It is also illegal, or rather at least a condition of their funding that parents could access the setting without additional fees, ie, ONLY making use of the funded hours.. and they don’t do that either! Full time, 3 day minimum or you don’t get a place. Waiting list as long as your arm.

To be honest I’m not angry at the nursery, they are pushed into an impossible position, and provide a very good setting for our kids- I’m pissed at the system, and the headline grabs of Extending free hours (but only if we’re kept in at the next election, right).

@Morecrimblecrumble
I get that nurseries have little choice and applying the rules would just close them. You definitely could push what they are doing, which is patently illegal, but I'm not sure I would in the circumstances.
Although it doesn't kick in for 2 1/2 years, whatever happens at the next election will mean the 30 hours (misleading for goodness knows how many reasons) will then be in place for 9 months up. Let's face it, Labour are not going to overturn that one!

I don’t think the parents of under 3’s subsidise the over 3’s at our nursery, at least not overtly.
Everyone pays £62 a day. Under 3’s pay that wholly, all year (including Christmas, when it’s closed..!)
over 3’s pay it wholly in non term time and top up the governments funding amount to match £62 a day during term time.

the variation in the system is interesting and also unfair isn’t it.

Your nursery is breaking the rules on funding though. My kids nursery really does do the free 30 hours in term time - 3 long days 8-6, including food. The only thing you have to provide is nappies if they are still in them then. When nurseries follow the rules and offer the free 30 hours, then parents who are paying (whether for a full time place or a younger child), are paying a subsidy to those who only use the grant.

they are.. but the council don’t enforce, and even if they did- nursery could opt out of the funding all together, we’d be screwed, and if they went under and closed, we’re screwed. It’s very tricky isn’t it!
this is the thing, parents like us are being shafted up and down the country- but because we want to work, and need the setting in order to do so- you tend to put uk and shut up don’t you (though I do email my MP v regularly on the topic!)

we’ve been where you are, two in with no funding. Now have 1 under 3 and 1 over and honestly counting the moments until one is in school and things ease up.
Hang in there!

Does any parent have a suggestion as to how nurseries/childminders can work it better so that parents don't feel 'robbed?

Let's assume for a minute they have to do something because the amount the government pays isn't enough.

Genuine question by the way, I'm aware written down this sounds sarcastic!

I think maybe if the government were more transparent about how much they actually pay, and how many weeks this actually covers; rather than constantly bleating "free childcare for all, we are amazing".

The childcare sector is absolutely rallying for this to be the case. Every time you see a childcarer say 'it's funded not free' even though it sounds petty, we are trying to get the message out.

The childcare fb pages I am on went wild last night when Martin Lewis Show said Funded not Free and you will need to pay the difference. It meant so much.

Your fees might be subsiding the costs for the older children, but I guarantee they are only preventing the nursery from making a loss. It is not possible to make a profit on babies and 2 year olds.

Yeah that's what I mean, I don't think childcare providers can say anything to make parents feel less robbed. It needs to come from the government (who wouldn't know honesty if it slapped them across the face).

So essentially we can't win. We either insist on top ups and piss parents off or keep parents happy and go bust.

It's a miserable situation for all.

I have thought myself that the conditions may begin to become unsafe. There isn't enough nurseries at present to accommodate all the extra children requiring places and nursery rooms can only hold so many children in that space safely. Will their needs be met? Will other small things so unnoticed? I don't know but I definitely think it would be need a lot of planning and rejigging in nurseries for it to run smoothly.