Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

How much do you think junior doctors should be paid per hour

384 replies

Jill688 · 13/03/2023 22:36

you are being unreasonable - they should be paid £14/hr

you are not being unreasonable - they should be paid more

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
WaitingForEgg · 14/03/2023 18:06

Agreed. My medical school sounds broadly similar. If an hour lecture were costing £100-200 for the clinician/ scientist. This was for 200 students, all paying £9000 per year.

I also did not sign a military style contract forcing me to do x amount of hours to pay it back. We are already very much stuck with the foundation programme, where we can be sent anywhere in the country to work for 2 years.

Cantseethewoodforthetree · 14/03/2023 20:36

WaitingForEgg · 14/03/2023 18:06

Agreed. My medical school sounds broadly similar. If an hour lecture were costing £100-200 for the clinician/ scientist. This was for 200 students, all paying £9000 per year.

I also did not sign a military style contract forcing me to do x amount of hours to pay it back. We are already very much stuck with the foundation programme, where we can be sent anywhere in the country to work for 2 years.

by striking and asking for wholly unrealistic and totally tone deaf pay rises the only way the nhs will survive is to force medical students to commit to the nhs before taking training places. It’s the only choice the medical profession is leaving the UK government with.

OnOldOlympus · 14/03/2023 20:44

Cantseethewoodforthetree · 14/03/2023 20:36

by striking and asking for wholly unrealistic and totally tone deaf pay rises the only way the nhs will survive is to force medical students to commit to the nhs before taking training places. It’s the only choice the medical profession is leaving the UK government with.

Show quote history

The beatings will continue until morale improves

Overworkedwithadog · 14/03/2023 20:52

I contributed to this thread earlier, then stepped back. Appreciate doctors don't really care what I think! Fwiw though, I think that professional costs should be covered. I also think parking costs should be covered. Also moving around the country sounds awful and imo that should be looked at. I think salaries seem ok. I know that's probably not popular. Seems like a big problem is vacancy rates, from what I've read on here. But if doctors go to Aus/ retire early, isn't that inevitable? I suppose the pension change may help re the early retirement. But as for going overseas... surely you know what your pay will be before you start medical school? And if you're unhappy, maybe say do economics or something at uni and go into the city? It seems to me a bit wrong to go overseas and leave your colleagues to pick up the slack- which will of course lead to shortages and more difficult conditions for other s. If big money, early on, is your goal, why choose medicine?

Newmumatlast · 14/03/2023 21:03

Jill688 · 14/03/2023 00:51

On the left what they’re paid, on the right what they want.

£14/hr -> £19/hr
£16/hr -> £22/hr
£19/hr -> £25/hr
£24/hr -> £32/hr
£28/hr -> £38/hr

This is really not a lot to ask imo for people who even when they first start out and still learning are highly qualified and have a lot of responsibility on their shoulders

Qazwsxefv · 14/03/2023 21:19

@Overworkedwithadog the thing is we did know what the pay was when we started medical school in my case 15 years ago. The problem is that the pay is now less in real terms than it was then, and the pension is also worth less than it was then - it was final salary when I started working, now it’s not. This isn’t the remuneration package I signed up for in 2005!

Overworkedwithadog · 14/03/2023 21:36

I think, unfortunately, lots of professional people have seen pensions fall. It's a bit shit, I suppose, for everyone, but presumably down to global factors. I, for one, will never retire as no funds in place! It is, what it is, as they say and no point moaning ( esp as no union backing (. Hey ho and all that though?

juniordoctor · 14/03/2023 21:37

And that in a nutshell is the issue.

The pay has been deliberately suppressed for the past 15 years. This, and conditions, have eroded any remaining good will the government had with the profession.

I applied in 2016. According to the calculator on the BoE website, since then pay has slipped 20ish%.

And so people see a better lifestyle and a better salary abroad or in other jobs, and go "why would I stay?".

Would you stay in a job where your employer cut your pay every year? Would you stay when they show no signs of stopping? They've proposed another below inflation rise for 23/24 afaik.

This is a line in the sand and a test of our union and our profession. I don't want to leave this country, and I still love my job. But why would I put roots down here when the government feel they can cut my pay year on year? I want to be a doctor, but do I want to commit to a country where politicians and the electorate think we should just put up with it?

And the debt people feel I owe to the NHS? If it ever existed, I will have payed that off after two years of doing 2+ people's jobs, staying late every day, and spending much of my placement years being redeployed to HDU/ICU/RSU in support of my placement trust throughout COVID.

And that's before we even think about the artificial training bottlenecks the government has created by failing to even try and model what workforce it needs.

avocadotofu · 14/03/2023 21:45

I think they should start on at least £50k! They also shouldn't have any debt. I can't understand how anyone thinks what they're currently being paid okay. Of course they should be paid more than a barista! Medical school is incredibly gruelling as is being a doctor at the best of times. Especially in a system that is on it's knee.

avocadotofu · 14/03/2023 21:50

Spendonsend · 14/03/2023 07:48

I'm an administrator with an A level, level qualification in my type of admin. I earn £16 an hour in the private sector with a 5% pension contribution and £15.32 in the state sector with a 12% contribution to my pension. Its not particulatly stressful but I suppose my name is accountable for some things publicly. These are not life and death things.

So i think doctors pay is crap. I dont understand why we all argue that everyone should have crap pay all the time.

I do think twice as many doctors would make the job nicer than more pay but the two are linked. So an increase in pay plus more doctors is the answer.

Well said!

jcyclops · 14/03/2023 23:11

Actual Pret a Manger pay rates per hour From April 2023
Team Member £10.60 - £11.90 depending on location & experience
Barista £11.20 - £12.85 depending on location & experience
In addition, all employees in a shop receive a £1.25/hour bonus for one week in which their shop scores above target from a mystery shopper.

This means that the most experienced Barista, in the most expensive location, whose shop scores a maximum from a mystery shopper, can get £14.10/hr for that week.

Jill688 · 14/03/2023 23:13

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

jcyclops · 14/03/2023 23:29

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

They had a pay rise in April 2022, another in December 2022 and these are the rates after the forthcoming pay rise in April 2023

aussiedoctor · 15/03/2023 00:24

Bumpitybumper · 14/03/2023 14:01

@mids2019
You make an excellent point and one that is central to the whole debate.

People are trying to benchmark the 'worth' of a doctor by suggesting that because they are paid more elsewhere then the UK is undervaluing them. This completely ignores the fact that other healthcare models are funded completely differently and if we as a country want to 'compete' on doctors' wages then we would need to charge people for health care in much the same way as these other countries do. Australia has 'gap' payments where patients have to fund their care over and above what is covered by Medicare and over half of Australians have private healthcare. To put it frankly, there is more money in the system to pay the doctors and therefore pay is higher. Of course we could do a similar thing here but is that really what people want?

And of course it's worth pointing out that other countries are desperate to poach our doctors as the British taxpayer has effectively subsidised many years of training. We should be putting clauses into training contracts to stop this practice as otherwise it simply isn't a great deal for the tax payer and the UK as a whole. There is a huge demand for places at medical schools so we should only be offering these to people that are prepared to work a number of decades in the NHS. If people don't want to do that then perhaps they should look into alternative career or fund their place completely using their own money without relying on government subsidies.

I have to respond to this utter misinformation about Australia and why we are able to pay our doctors a better wage. I'm an Australian doctor (born in England - moved over here are a child).

Australian doctors who work 100% in the public system (which is most of us) and are paid by the government are paid extremely well. The Australian PUBLIC health system is completely funded by the taxpayer. It does NOT have gap payments. Our public hospital system, which I work for and have for many years, and which provides the vast majority of healthcare in our country, charges patients NOTHING. It is accessible by EVERYONE, and every single Australian will use it (even if they also have private health insurance, as our private system is very limited here to mostly elective procedures).

When you refer to gap payments you are referring to our private system. The way our private system works is that our government contributes some of the money towards private treatment (medicare funded), and the patient and / or their insurer contributes the rest (the gap).

Private insurance is not necessary in Australia (about half of Australians have some level of cover) and is mostly only used for elective, non urgent issues. The vast majority of our healthcare is delivered via our public system, which is again, free at point of access to all Australians (regardless of insurance status or income).

Despite this we still able to pay our PUBLIC doctors (and our nurses) a very good wage. As a registrar (a doctor in specialty training with five years experience) I make more than a UK consultant. Absurd.

When I was an intern (FY1 equivalent) I made the equivalent of 40,000 pounds a year BASE salary. I made approximately another 15,000 pounds on top of that in overtime and penalty rates. I wouldn't get out of bed for what the UK pays its junior doctors.

So please do not spread misinformation. It has nothing to do with funding models. If it did then Australia would not be able to afford to pay its PUBLIC doctors a wage that is considerably more than their counterparts back in the UK.

And I'll be very clear - you can all continue with this toxic tall poppy syndrome behaviour of accusing doctors of being entitled, of implying that they shouldn't go into it for the money, or that they "owe" the public decades of indentured servitude (?why? they go into debt to train as a doctor, and then they work in the NHS providing a service, which is how salaries work. they owe you... nothing), or telling them that the fact that they get a good pension and good salary when they (if they....) ever become a consultant, as if that helps them pay the bills now.

By all means, continue with this. Why? Because that kind of thing is AMAZING for Australia's healthcare system. We will take every British trained doctor you can supply us with - we love them. They are hard workers, they are experienced, they are talented, and best of all we never had to pay to train them. Same for your nurses - we will take them all. So please... keep undervaluing your healthcare professionals, keep training our future doctors and nurses for us - our Australian health system thanks you for it.

maddening · 15/03/2023 00:41

Hollyhead · 13/03/2023 22:57

First year out of uni 30k for a 36 hour week, take away their responsibility so they’re supernumerary. From then on a pay scale up to about 65/70k before consultant level would feel right. Would also add antisocial hours into this.

Also - free parking for clinical staff, and exams/training/professional insurance fees all covered by the NHS.

I would also potentially allow them to opt out of the nhs pension scheme and opt into nest instead in exchange for higher pay now.

I agree with this, or £35k starting and training paid for subject to working full time in nhs for 10 years.

But definitely cap on hours worked - tired people make mistakes.

Hdkatznahtw125sgh · 15/03/2023 02:36

I’m a band 5 nhs nurse.

Junior doctor is too broad a term. FY1 should start on a minimum of 38k, with overtime paid and if breaks aren’t taken (often happens. It should then be an incremental rise as they progress FY2 onwards.

Registrars are grossly underpaid also, and as much as it’s an unpopular view so are consultants.

The UK is haemorrhaging medics to Australia, New Zealand and out of medicine. The lack of Medics and lack of nurses affects the other job role massively. patients are dying as a result of these extreme shortages.

On a night in my hospital, one FY1 is covering up to eight wards, 3 HDUs etc. if one patient has a cardiac arrest on that ward they are the first point of call. Yes there is registrars and some consultants but the FY1 on the ward and their knowledge of that patient is key.

Tonight in my hospital (I’m not in england), 8 medical wards are being covered by 8 Registered Nurses, 10 Health Care Assistants and one FY1 doctor. That’s 260 patients. This is dangerous. Patients lives are at risk

Hdkatznahtw125sgh · 15/03/2023 02:39

@Hollyhead being supernumary wouldn’t change anything. Student Nurses are supposed to be supernumary, I’ve yet to witness it happen.

newstart1234 · 15/03/2023 07:01

All very good points aussiedoctor but between the nutjobs of putin truss and (I'll add in cameron here) we have a clumped up combination of shite in the uk. The pay will have to come from other budgets or tax rises, meaning other servivces would suffer. It's getting a balance between the losses of everyone in a time when (almost) everyone is losing. And the top 5-10% of earners is not the hill to be dying on. I don't know about Australia's economy is doing right now but it's fair to say the uk is ... er... challenging.

WaitingForEgg · 15/03/2023 07:23

aussiedoctor · 15/03/2023 00:24

I have to respond to this utter misinformation about Australia and why we are able to pay our doctors a better wage. I'm an Australian doctor (born in England - moved over here are a child).

Australian doctors who work 100% in the public system (which is most of us) and are paid by the government are paid extremely well. The Australian PUBLIC health system is completely funded by the taxpayer. It does NOT have gap payments. Our public hospital system, which I work for and have for many years, and which provides the vast majority of healthcare in our country, charges patients NOTHING. It is accessible by EVERYONE, and every single Australian will use it (even if they also have private health insurance, as our private system is very limited here to mostly elective procedures).

When you refer to gap payments you are referring to our private system. The way our private system works is that our government contributes some of the money towards private treatment (medicare funded), and the patient and / or their insurer contributes the rest (the gap).

Private insurance is not necessary in Australia (about half of Australians have some level of cover) and is mostly only used for elective, non urgent issues. The vast majority of our healthcare is delivered via our public system, which is again, free at point of access to all Australians (regardless of insurance status or income).

Despite this we still able to pay our PUBLIC doctors (and our nurses) a very good wage. As a registrar (a doctor in specialty training with five years experience) I make more than a UK consultant. Absurd.

When I was an intern (FY1 equivalent) I made the equivalent of 40,000 pounds a year BASE salary. I made approximately another 15,000 pounds on top of that in overtime and penalty rates. I wouldn't get out of bed for what the UK pays its junior doctors.

So please do not spread misinformation. It has nothing to do with funding models. If it did then Australia would not be able to afford to pay its PUBLIC doctors a wage that is considerably more than their counterparts back in the UK.

And I'll be very clear - you can all continue with this toxic tall poppy syndrome behaviour of accusing doctors of being entitled, of implying that they shouldn't go into it for the money, or that they "owe" the public decades of indentured servitude (?why? they go into debt to train as a doctor, and then they work in the NHS providing a service, which is how salaries work. they owe you... nothing), or telling them that the fact that they get a good pension and good salary when they (if they....) ever become a consultant, as if that helps them pay the bills now.

By all means, continue with this. Why? Because that kind of thing is AMAZING for Australia's healthcare system. We will take every British trained doctor you can supply us with - we love them. They are hard workers, they are experienced, they are talented, and best of all we never had to pay to train them. Same for your nurses - we will take them all. So please... keep undervaluing your healthcare professionals, keep training our future doctors and nurses for us - our Australian health system thanks you for it.

Show quote history

Thank you so so much for this. I’d love to know how things are for GPs in Australia if you have time to share by DM? I’m so sick of the population of the UK

Maggiethecat · 15/03/2023 07:38

@aussiedoctor and @juniordoctor and other doctors on here - appreciate your perspective from the inside.

Added to doctors’ woes is the apparent overwhelming ingratitude of a large number of the people they serve who seem to feel that doctors shouldn’t be compensated appropriately for the work they do.

Covid wasn’t that long ago but how quickly people forget.

OMG12 · 15/03/2023 07:39

Like most professions, they’re salaried. As a newly qualified tax accountant (3 years uni and 3 years study on top of work) I worked long hours (often it was less than min wage if you worked it out) it’s the promise of higher wages later.

junior doctors start on £29k that’s fine. They need their hours limiting but the pressure on the nhs is something different

OMG12 · 15/03/2023 07:41

Maggiethecat · 15/03/2023 07:38

@aussiedoctor and @juniordoctor and other doctors on here - appreciate your perspective from the inside.

Added to doctors’ woes is the apparent overwhelming ingratitude of a large number of the people they serve who seem to feel that doctors shouldn’t be compensated appropriately for the work they do.

Covid wasn’t that long ago but how quickly people forget.

Not everyone is grateful for a reason. Do you know how many women are left with PTSD every year often linked to appaling medical care during childbirth? After my experience I wouldn’t trust a doctor as far as I could throw them.

Maggiethecat · 15/03/2023 07:43

OMG12 · 15/03/2023 07:41

Not everyone is grateful for a reason. Do you know how many women are left with PTSD every year often linked to appaling medical care during childbirth? After my experience I wouldn’t trust a doctor as far as I could throw them.

Show quote history

Hopefully you’ll never have to use one ever again then.

newstart1234 · 15/03/2023 07:51

Maggiethecat · 15/03/2023 07:38

@aussiedoctor and @juniordoctor and other doctors on here - appreciate your perspective from the inside.

Added to doctors’ woes is the apparent overwhelming ingratitude of a large number of the people they serve who seem to feel that doctors shouldn’t be compensated appropriately for the work they do.

Covid wasn’t that long ago but how quickly people forget.

It's not that they think they shouldn't be compensated appropriately for what they do... it's that people think they are properly compensated. It's on the ipsos website if you're interested. 37% think newly qualified doctors are paid about right or too much (mostly about right), and a 86% of people think consultants are paid about right or too much, with about half of those thinking 'too much'. This is basically reflected on this thread. Yes, newly qualified should get a decent raise at least as much as inflation (stopping parking charges would benefit the lowest paid doctors more than the better paid for example), but it's acknowledged that the salaries go up quickly in the career to a very nice high. The fact is that Tory decisions have put the uk in a worse position than it would otherwise be and there is not enough money to go round. I totally get that doctors feel undervalued. Totally. I just think everyone feels undervalued right now because they are working harder for less money.

DifferenceEngines · 15/03/2023 08:01

Overworkedwithadog · 14/03/2023 20:52

I contributed to this thread earlier, then stepped back. Appreciate doctors don't really care what I think! Fwiw though, I think that professional costs should be covered. I also think parking costs should be covered. Also moving around the country sounds awful and imo that should be looked at. I think salaries seem ok. I know that's probably not popular. Seems like a big problem is vacancy rates, from what I've read on here. But if doctors go to Aus/ retire early, isn't that inevitable? I suppose the pension change may help re the early retirement. But as for going overseas... surely you know what your pay will be before you start medical school? And if you're unhappy, maybe say do economics or something at uni and go into the city? It seems to me a bit wrong to go overseas and leave your colleagues to pick up the slack- which will of course lead to shortages and more difficult conditions for other s. If big money, early on, is your goal, why choose medicine?

Well, first of all, people often choose careers quite young. Less pay and a crazy lifestyle might not seem a barrier to a teenager - reality hits a bit different once you are wanting to settle down.

With going overseas and letting your colleagues pick up the slack - well, once you have a family, what sort of a person would put propping up the system over their children's well-being?