Who's unreasonable - me or window cleaner?

[HugATwat]

My dog is petrified of the window cleaner.

The reason I started using my current window cleaner is because he always texts so I know in advance when he's coming.

On Friday evening, WC text to say he was coming on Saturday morning. But I was going to be out Saturday morning so I texted him back and said to leave it for this month because the dog would be home alone and wouldn't cope. I said I'd still be happy to pay but please don't clean the windows.

No reply.

I texted again first thing on Saturday morning. No reply.

I called him on Saturday morning. He didn't answer. I left a message. No reply.

I texted him again before we went out saying please don't clean my windows today.

I went out because I couldn't avoid it. I'd asked a couple of friends if they could sit with the dog but they couldn't, far too short notice. When I came back, the windows had been cleaned. The dog was in a right state and had pissed and shit all over the floor.

So I spent an hour or so calming the dog down. Then another couple of hours cleaning everything up. And the living room carpet will need a professional because the piddle has stained quite badly.

I texted the WC to tell him I wouldn't be paying because I'd specifically asked him not to clean the windows.
This time, he texted back. Quelle fucking surprise.

I'm holding firm and not paying. Needless to say I've told him to take me off his books for the future.

It's a weird situation because I was actually willing to pay him for NOT doing the work. But I'm not willing to pay for work that he's done that I specifically asked him not to do.

Am I being unreasonable here? I'm still so pissed off.

Heartless for your lack of consideration towards the poor dog and you know fine well what I meant.

Having a different perspective doesn't make people dense. But it doesn't make them immune from being dense, either. It is certainly pretty dense to keep pushing the angle that a trader who relies on his phone to communicate with his customers has no need to check his phone for replies and should expect to get paid when he's done work he's explicitly been told not to do.

. But can you seriously say the OP hasn't made her dog's fear worse by herding it around the house to get away from the window cleaner?

She either takes the dog out, or simply takes him to a back room when the window cleaner is at the front and vice versa. Why on earth would any of that make the dog's fear worse? The point is that, that way, he doesn't hear and see the things that make him scared.

I used to be a behaviourist and wonder what steps you have taken to help the dog? Feeling this afraid is horrible for him and isn't necessary if only you would seek professional help. How much better to put in some effort and teach the dog that callers aren't dangerous and scary? You should be able to find a behaviourist near to you.
Here's an example. I once took in a Shih-tzu who was so terrified of loud bangs, she would try to dig through walls to escape. She'd tear her nails and blood was everywhere.
I live very rural so if the local farmers aren't out shooting pheasants, there are loud crow scarers, and of course, thunder. I wouldn't let any dog of mine suffer like this so, whenever there was shooting, or banging, or thunder, I'd go outside with the rest of the dogs and her and leap about like a lunatic, shouting "yippee yippee" throwing treats, bits of cheese, and anything they only got very rarely and was therefore of high value. I never fussed or petted her during these times. The rest of the dogs and I carried on with our 'party'.
By the end of 6 months , the dog got excited at the first gunshot or rumble of thunder and was with all the other dogs, at the back door, waiting for the party to start because they knew that a loud bang, was the starting signal.
It can be done, and it will help your dog, but be prepared that the behaviourist trains you more than the dog because humans are generally the ones who encouraged or started the behaviour in the first place.
I lost 'Dibs' in 2009. She was well into her teens and had lived a happy and fear free life. Here she is in her usual sleeping position, the little hussy.

My dog is my absolute life. Before me she had an unimaginably awful life. When I adopted her, she was petrified of basically everything. I've worked hard, with and without a behaviourist.

I've rescued really nervous dogs before so have lots of experience.

We've (me, the dog, the behaviour lady I had some sessions with, friends) cracked basically all her fears. But she can't get past the WC so we manage it by getting out of his way and doing noisy playing while he's around.

I was heartbroken to leave her alone when the WC was potentially going to come. I was as quick as possible. But I wasn't 100% sure if he'd come or not because of the lack of communication. But I had no choice. I had to go out and there was no-one to sit with her. I still well up to think about it.

And, no, of course I haven't made this up. What a fucking boring story to make up!!

So you're no longer a dog behaviourist........ because?

@fenwoman123 , @WiddlinDiddlin , who is still a dog behaviourist, has spelt out chapter and verse on how you cannot.genuinely teach a dog not to be afraid of which they have ingrained fear. Given that her post is backed by explanation whereas yours is backed by one anecdote, it does sound rather more convincing.

I guess because her “method” of teaching her dog not to be scared of something involved flooding it with the experience it found terrifying. Not a behaviourist I’d use or anyone whose advice I would take!

I absolutely can, yes - in fact avoiding the dog experiencing that level of fear is vital to modifying emotional responses, via classical conditioning (in this context usually called counter conditioning as we're working to alter a conditioned response, rather than create a brand new one to a previously unconditioned stimulus).

Once you get past a certain threshold for fear, and stress hormone levels get too high, the subject cannot learn anything positive - thats a normal function of the brain.

To put it into laymans terms - if you could be distracted and diverted from dealing with something aversive, by something positively reinforcing - ie:

you could forget about running away from a tiger, because you've just spotted a pile of your favourite chocolate bars...

Then you would not survive long in the wild.

In fact the brain would stop you finding an appetitive reinforcer in any way reinforcing in that situation - hence in high stress situations many people find food has no flavour and they've little or no desire for it.

So we have to make sure dogs are below threshold when we seek to desensitize or counter condition - or it simply will not work.

Some people use flooding to try to fix problems, believing that everyone needs to 'face their fears' to overcome them. This doesn't work well even in a species who can choose to subject themselves to it, and understand how it works.

People often think flooding has worked, when the animal produces a frozen or subdued response - exhibits learned helplessness - this absence of the unwanted behaviour is deemed a positive result, but it will be temporary and the animal is almost certainly (we know, we can test for stress hormone levels!) experiencing extreme stress.

Even where counter conditioning and altering emotional responses has been successful, once anyone has been seriously frightened of something, a particular event or context, they are much more likely to be frightened of it again without some effort being put into avoiding unnecessary exposure to the trigger, and also efforts put into mitigating the stress caused by unavoidable exposure.

Again, that is a normal function of the brain. It's how we learn and stay safe.

@BaroldFromEastenders my thoughts exactly!

@WiddlinDiddlin Thanks for your explanation. This resonates with my dog and other nervous rescues I've had in the past. I really have tried my absolute best to do counter conditioning with everything that caused her stress when I first had her. We just can't crack the WC.

Or, weirdly, houseplants on the fire hearth 🤔I haven't particularly bothered with that one, easier to just not put plants there!

"So you're no longer a dog behaviourist........ because?"
Because I am nearly 70 years old and in poor health. Satisfied? Is that a reasonable excuse?

It doesn't involve flooding at all. Reward based training is nothing like flooding'. Obviously you don't have a clue, which is fair enough. A behaviorist isn't a trainer. As I replied already, I retired because of age and infirmity.
before you start throwing accusations and slurs around, perhaps you should at least learn something. But I guess ignorance is as good as any qualification lol.

And I'll think you'll find your ideas at age 70'are massively outdated!

@DizzyLizzyKizzy And I'll think you'll find your ideas at age 70'are massively outdated

@fenwoman123 has shared relevant, up to date expertise.

People’s ideas don’t automatically become ‘outdated’ if they continue to develop their knowledge. There are lots of top notch academics in their 70s. Your reply was really ageist and rude.

I should think no matter what age you are you are extremely rude and ageist!!! Both of which are also massively outdated. Pity you can't be trained to behave better.

Fuck this for a game of soldiers. I think I am going to self identify as a dog from now on...

Oh and PS - someone please let David Attenborough know he's "outdated" 😂

He must be totally off the scale at what 96/97???!!!

Window cleaners are, from a dogs POV... fucking scary. Horrible rattly ladders and poles, suddenly appearing where no human should appear above ground level, or their pole and spongy thing does - dog barks out of startle reaction, thing goes away... then thing comes back at another window, dog barks again, thing goes away...

Etc etc all around the house, pushing the dogs stress hormones up and up - depending on what else the dog has to deal with, this can easily put a dog over threshold, and of course some dogs will have a lower threshold than others...

It is pretty much the perfect storm of increasing stress hormones, relief that reinforces the active behaviours of barking/growling etc each time the cleaner/equipment disappears (relief is HUGELY reinforcing... its a huge factor in why people do dangerous sports, its also a big element in why domestic abuse victims remain with abusers!)... only for it to happen all over again a few minutes later.

Sometimes its far far kinder to avoid the thing, particularly where it is generally easily avoidable, than try to fix it once reasonable attempts have failed.

oh I’m sorry, I thought you said your way of dealing with your dogs terror was to take yourself and your dogs outside when the scary thing was going on and chuck treats around. In fact you did say that. You took her outside and threw her into a situation that was more than she could cope with and flooded her with her fears, ignored her and gave her no reassurance.

just because you threw some treats around doesn’t make it reward based training. Pointing out that whatever you called yourself behaviour or trainer or whatever, you were not a good one is definitely not a slur. You just don’t like it.

I wouldn't let any dog of mine suffer like this so, whenever there was shooting, or banging, or thunder, I'd go outside with the rest of the dogs and her and leap about like a lunatic, shouting "yippee yippee" throwing treats, bits of cheese, and anything they only got very rarely and was therefore of high value. I never fussed or petted her during these times. The rest of the dogs and I carried on with our 'party'.

I wouldn't let any dog of mine suffer like this so, whenever there was shooting, or banging, or thunder, I'd go outside with the rest of the dogs and her and leap about like a lunatic, shouting "yippee yippee" throwing treats, bits of cheese, and anything they only got very rarely and was therefore of high value. I never fussed or petted her during these times. The rest of the dogs and I carried on with our 'party'.

Good grief, I suspect the poor animal was terrified by her owner's behaviour, let alone the bangs and flashes.

Didn't know he was a dog behaviourist?

I think my window cleaner is on this thread as he has just sent me a text to say they will be here tomorrow.
All previous texts have finished with - any problem let me know.
This text started with - polite reminder.
First I've heard about tomorrow's visit and it's been more than 2 months since the last clean. They always clean less in the winter as they don't clean if it's raining.
Happy to have my windows cleaned, just an odd coincidence

Well, there you go. Every day's a school day...

She cancelled a day in advance. Just because you hire someone to do something monthly doesn't mean you cannot say "no, I don't want the service this month."

She is the client and can choose or not choose to have the job done. She chose not to have it done. That's all that needs to be said.

Taking the dog out of the equation. She told him more than 24 hours in advance to NOT come and do the job. The dog is actually secondary in this.
She said "no" and he did it anyway....gee, that sounds so familiar.