To think people are very quick to forget the pandemic

[BelleMarionette]

Myself, and other junior doctors, worked hard on the covid wards, in appalling conditions. We didn't have decent PPE, and often had little to no relevant experience or training, as many were redeployed with little notice (in my case, 36 hours). Almost all of of us became sick, some very seriously so, and some even died. Many more were left struggling with our own mental health, suffering from PTSD, anxiety and depression.

We are now striking, due to pay erosion over the past 15 years. In real terms its around a 30% pay cut. It's difficult to live on what we are be being paid, especially with families to support.

I have seen an awful lot of negative comments about junior doctors on another thread. Aibu to think the public has been very quick to forget our contribution during the pandemic?

I would dearly love to be wrong and see support

@Velvian im sorry but some of these awful attitudes and the huge Tory majority at the last general election is a huge part of the reason we are haemorrhage healthcare staff and the government think they can put out a few biased BBC articles and get the public on side against the greedy doctors.

eirannachs post about my privilege did make me laugh though - I was raised by a single parent in a former steel making town….. zero privilege or family money here. Just a load of student debt.

Other than the properly furloughed, medical staff on the whole were probably the most pampered of all during the pandemic. First access to and best PPE, empty hospitals, and now everyone had to battle for a face to face appointment as phone calls are replacing them, to the pantients' detriment.

Personally I will never forget the social media dances doctors did during a pandemic that apparently everyone was dropping dead and they were so rushed off their feet. I will never forget the lies doctors spread about the seriousness of covid and how I was ostracised from society because I didn't want to take an experimental drug. I find it very hard to have any pity from doctors at all. The truth is starting to come out about covid but we will never hear the full extent of it unfortunately.

FFS, try telling the family of our 53 year old neighbour who died from covid after working on the frontline as a doctor without access to proper PPE that he was pampered.

There are some truly vile human beings on this thread who don't deserve to be cared for if they ever get sick. Luckily for you, the NHS doesn't make value judgements on whether or not it is worth keeping you alive.

I honestly believe most people don't understand the realities of being a Doctor. Even the basics such as the way on call works and how it is paid. In fact so much, I could go and on. More importantly, they don't want to.

This is true.

On that vile thread yesterday there were dozens of posters who were, in good faith, trying to explain some of the issues and to explain why we are striking, and it fell on deaf ears. People simply don’t want to understand.

A junior doctor is already qualified and may have 15 plus years experience. It’s only consultants who are not classed as junior everyone else is.

This, plus, some including police, and prison service who carried on, getting coughed on and spat at deliberately who are barred from striking and had pay frozen (I think) but the increase in living wage also covered those on furlough which could make the core workers who are salaried without an increase feel like they'd been done over.

I understand it may seem like a race to the bottom, but it's not, it's having an awareness that there are many who were deemed core workers during the pandemic, the threat/danger varied but the strain and stress will impact all the workers, all the core workers need to have better pay and conditions, the pandemic highlighted the importance of all these roles and how they need to crack on regardless.

These core areas in general need to be seen as the jobs to have, good pay well looked after for this very reason, yes some will be more intense but ultimately they are all important enough to have been needed to crack on regardless during a pandemic. All of them need to stick together and get better conditions/pay especially if they would be expected to do the same again if another pandemic arose.

I don't think it is just how hard doctors, nurses and others in the NHS worked that is forgotten about. Things such as basic standards of hygiene and especially hand washing for everyone are not remembered by all.

I am a senior NHS consultant. I support the strike (though worry about patient care and feel that perhaps one or two days would have been a better compromise). The conditions for juniors are terrible and nobody is listening.

But I am wary to ‘use’ the pandemic in this way. Yes those of us working on wards faced big risks. And I have never felt so exhausted. I detested the clapping and asked family not to participate. It was such a patronising token gesture from those staying home and distracted from an underfunded and poorly managed NHS.

But the pandemic was shit for many people in many different ways. If they were clapping for the NHS, they needed to be clapping for supermarket workers, delivery staff, factory employees, those who work in transport and so many more professions. NHS staff were not the only ones who kept this country going and the disparity in recognition embarrassed me.

And not all NHS staff were working. Initially many community staff were stuck at home without technology and were not doing anything in Easter 2020. My own juniors were whisked away from my ward to ICU overnight leaving my patients without care. I kept in touch with my lovely juniors who were upset about losing their training experience in my speciality, especially as they would turn up in ICU only to be turned away; the need was for CPAP machines and specialist training and they didn’t have that. So they went home by 10am. Let’s not pretend every NHS doctor was working harder than everyone else. Of course many staff worked really hard and put themselves at risk. Being coughed on by unwell covid patients was more than most people had to deal with, but not every clinician was in this situation.

Many of our jobs changed greatly during the pandemic. But ultimately I was a doctor so had to stay being a doctor. Of course I couldn’t have predicted a pandemic but there was nothing heroic about me doing the job I was paid to do and working on the wards.

The one group I do feel for was the final year medical students. Who were told they were doctors and didn’t need to do their finals. They were put straight on to ICU and their first doctor job involved watching patient after patient die and be the ones holding up the iPads to inform relatives of the death. That group of young doctors really suffered.

More controversially I didn’t support the wholesale shutdown of most parts of the NHS. After the first four to six weeks we had some idea of the risk groups etc and should have reopened many services. To avoid the shit situation we are in now. But I was a lone voice.

I support the junior doctors. But don’t relate my support to anything specific in the pandemic. I would have supported them in any case.

Anyway I have been up since 2am with vomiting young twins. But am off to work now to cover the wards for my junior colleagues. Wish me (and the patients) luck… And good luck to the junior doctors striking. I support you. Apologies for typos. I am tired!

The thing is there are millions of people that are paid so much less that are currently struggling to survive, there doesn’t seem to be any support for them so why should there be support for doctors? You chose the profession knowing what the pay and conditions were like, if you dislike it perhaps retrain? Right now there’s not the funds to support every pay rise and I’d rather see those worse off get public funds than those that are on relatively cushy pay already.

This attitude doesn’t exactly endear me to the doctors’ cause, I have to say. Society only works as a whole; without those on minimum wage staffing the shops, working in factories, driving delivery vehicles, those in cushy government backed jobs with a far more secure pensions than most of the population can aspire to would have been unable to get to work, never mind eat!! Excluding the city, which is another problem all together, most people’s salaries have stagnated or gone backwards in real terms since at least 2008.

Doctors are no more or less deserving that the rest of the workplace when it comes to pay increases; and they do at least have the opportunity to earn more through the various premiums for on-call, week-end and night work, and the ability to pick up locum shifts. Your average junior / mid manager doesn’t have this, and is probably paid a similar amount to a trainee doctor over the first 4 or 5 years as both progress. And a higher % of the doctors have the ability to become high earning GPs / specialists / surgeons than your average mid manager does of becoming the HR director…

Some doctors do themselves no favours with how they come across. Which is a shame as there are genuine issues to sort out in Medicine, but also some empathy for the general public would not go amiss.

Some members of the public have no idea what it’s like to be a doctor.

I think it’s worth listening to those who work in the profession. I have no idea really what it’s like to be a teacher or police officer so need to listen to them.

Everyone telling teachers and doctors to retrain, leave the country etc is shooting themselves in the foot. Without these two vital services our country is truly ruined.

I think that’s a relatively decent starting salary compared to lots of other (also highly qualified) professions , yes.

Our soldiers, sailors and airmen/women train constantly for a pittance. They can't walk away at the end of a shift and often spend 6 months working in conditions jnr doctors couldn't even dream of and living in hell holes. Military medics may have to work on a close friend that has been blown to bits, but they get paid peanuts but they get on with the job they chose to do.

My understanding is not that doctors are asking for a pay rise because of Covid. My understanding is that the pandemic years and the current aftermath are an example of a crumbling Service ( a Service that has been crumbling for years). The pandemic is an example not an excuse - this is my humble interpretation and opinion.

Agreed, people are conflating the starting salary for a trainee with that of a junior doctor, or doctor after 7 years of training. Sure, they start on £30k, but after two years they’re on £40k, and after another 2 years they’re on £60k. And that’s before the extra payments for weekend / on call / nights etc. The biggest issue I see is the constant moving around in the first two years.

www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england

I support the junior doctors. Thank you for the work you do.

You misunderstand. Nobody is suggesting that a doctor should be paid the same as a shop worker. The reason people started talking about bus drivers/ supermarket staff etc, is that the OP brought up having to work during the pandemic, as a reason she deserved a pay rise.
I don’t think bankers need ridiculous bonuses, and I think Junior doctors are relatively well paid, although I recognise the working conditions are abysmal and that’s what needs to change.

Yeah, nurses finding time for tiktok dances yet supposedly in the middle of a pandemic?

I was in and out patient in 2 large hospitals during the plandemic months- they were empty, when i say empty i mean empty not a soul walking the corridors and no one in the main entrances etc,i took pictures,during the day during the week when you would expect some hustle and bustle of a large usually busy hospital. A and E had 2-3 people whenever i passed,before the plandemic they were rammed so much there werent enough seats and people were standing.

and of course the bullying by the nhs staff- you dont wear a mask? Threats of no doctors appointment and/or call security, no vaccine? Go sit in the area away from everyone else by the entrance. You want your husband at a c section? Even you have been in a room of your own for a week and not allowed to leave the room (due to possible complications) - husband could not attend my c section unless i gave a throat and nose swab, hut he was made to sit in the main entrance for 5 hours on the c section day lol. Logic fails who could possibly be more contagious.

list is endless, everyone needs a payrise we are all paying higher bills from fuel to food to energy and clothes

I do remember the pandemic but I don't see how being grateful for that necessarily means that I will think the problems in the NHS will be solved by your getting a pay rise.

There are many professions I'm very grateful to as a result of the pandemic - teachers, nurses, paramedics, supermarket workers, care home staff - very grateful to them all.

one nhs worker said on itv that if they got their pay rise they could do a better job- until when, when there is another increase in the living costs?

it is so bizarre as if living costs have only applied to the nhs,rail workers and the police- we all use the same energy suppliers, same petrol stations and supermarkets, every single person has taken a paycut in this country, even people who are on benefits have got 10 pcnt increase when in reality living expenses are up 20pcnt

I'm disgusted by some of the comments on this thread.

I support the NHS.

I support the nurses, the carers, the midwives, the junior Dr's, the consultants and anyone who has chosen this vocation. My daughter is a medical student and the hours and hours of study and dedication is admirable, the burn out leaves amongst medical friends of mine is huge and none of them are making this mythical salary I see here. It takes many many years post degree to lose the Junior Dr title and unless you get to consultant level it's all they will ever be.

Picking at I vs Myself is an embarrassment to witness.

There really are some nasty trolls on here. I have long covid and all sorts of neurological shit post covid and vaccines- do I think it was some kind of bizzare world wide plan- ? Of course not. They would all have to be in on it- world wide- junior medics simply are not paid enough - my son earns far more at 24 working in IT

I support the Junior Doctors and their right to strike for better pay and working conditions. I don't think equating it directly back to the pandemic would be my reasons for supporting, as with respect I worked in another field (frontline Social Worker) throughout and myself and my colleagues hasfto enter in to people's homes without PPE/ with inadequate PPE even if they were symptomatic or claimed to be Covid positive, if the child were deemed to be at risk. We also had to attend CP Meds at our local large hospital which was blessedly quieter than usual with stringent measures in place that we couldn't adopt in the community. So whilst I do agree that doctors placed themselves at risk during the pandemic, they are amongst a significant group of the population who did.

My support stems more from the issues in the NHS at the moment (and across public sector as a whole really) where everything is understaffed, over worked and burnt out. On paper adding additional pay rises doesn't really solve the problem, you'll still be working beyond what a reasonable amount of hours looks like, worrying about more patients than you can comfortably and worrying about staff burn out and retention but in practice hopefully whilst these issues are considered longer term a pay increase may help staff feel more valued and more inclination to ride the storm.

But yes, I stand beside the doctors and their right to strike for fair pay and working conditions.