To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

A very large proportion of doctors are privately educated, and of those that aren't, most go to either grammar schools or comprehensive schools in salubrious areas, so basically state-funded private schools. Very few come from legitimate working class backgrounds. A very high proportion of doctors are subsidised by their parents well into their working lives.

Yes, and this lack of diversity is a huge issue in the profession. It’s currently really hard for students from diverse backgrounds, who may not have the support of the bank of mum and dad, to break into medicine. Raising our wages so that we, as working professionals, are able to support ourselves from the get go would be a great way of making it more feasible for those from working class backgrounds to join the profession.

I don't mind if the state funds much less than it does. Obviously those on the left will not agree at all with that which is fine - we are all free to have our own views and vote as we choose at the next election.

I have used a doctor for 2 appoints in 15 years. I call them the £100,000 7 minute appointments. However I appreciate others get some (limited ) NHS protection but many others do not, no easy GP appointments, less and less provided. Given we have the highest tax burden now for 70 years I think it is time to consider allowing peopole to opt out of the NHS in return for a 20% reduction in their annual tax bill.

Based on experience, I don’t think higher taxes, or bigger budgets do. The NHS being one of many examples. But by reducing the overall tax intake, people then have more opportunity to pay for private sector provision instead.

I wonder why no political party seeks election on a platform like this, which would appeal to the tiny %age of the population who are extremely well off, and make life even tougher for most other people? What a headscratcher ...

Onoldolympus. Yes one of the problems is the bottleneck. So many more junior doctors compared to consultants in our department, but therefore throw more money in getting more admin and other HCP.
It is also frustrating for the junior/middle grades who spend years in one specialty to then change to a more accessible specialty. Wasted "training".
I have worked in another country where the proportion of juniors to seniors is much more matched.

More public services would help those who will never be able to afford private health etc.

Do you ever think of anything beyond your own wealth?

Perhaps. But at the expense of people who would be otherwise be able to, but can’t because of their high tax burden.

DSH you can afford private health insurance if you’re well paid atm, but don’t expect it to cover more than fairly simple stuff. With doctors and other staff trained in the public system, so “subsidising” your private health provision.

Yes, and this lack of diversity is a huge issue in the profession
There are now a number of programmes funded, accessible to those from lower backgrounds, lower education level only, from Y9, to teach them what life as a doctor is like and giving them the same tools as those in private schools recieve, to access a place in medical school.

The medical schools attached to these often request lower A levels achievements but this can't take away the fact that medical training require a high level of intelligence in terms of processing quickly high level of information and so isn't available to everyone and more importantly, not appealing to many with lower ambitions.

Getting a med school place is the very start of the journey, the financial sacrifices and advantage those from wealthier backgrounds have start there, but continue all the way through postgraduate training and beyond.

@vivainsomnia this is just widening participation to get into medical school and most medical schools have this . Finding clever and motivated DC who are less privileged is the easier piece of the jigsaw. However, this doesn't address the issue of them being able to financially stand on their own feet once they get into the profession. That is what the PP raised and is by far the bigger issue.

@Beyondtired123

Me too. Quite a lot of ignorance and plenty of political motivation.

Sounds pretty similar to being married to my DH who is in a particularly demanding specialty but without the £££ to help cope with it.
Lawyers don't have a monopoly on hard work any more than doctors do or many who are far more poorly paid than either.

And others will use the NHS every week. It’s irrelevant as to your ability to pay - free at the point of use.

Crap at the point of use, frequently.

Allowing wealthy people who are also fortunate enough to be very health to opt out and pay less tax is never going to be an option however hard done by you feel.
A partially insurance based system or a tiered system could certainly be considered though.

You mean the top maybe 10% who can afford to do so. What about all the others with chronic diseases, mental illness, disability etx
How utterly entirely and self absorbed can you be. You know tax is for society right? Not for your personal selfish need.
I wonder how you would feel if you needed expensive chemotherapy or chronic disease long term care well beyond the abilities of the majority to pay?

This is even more true for careers in the arts where internships aren't paid. Many of the troubles you're ascribing to medicine are familiar to other professions too.

A lot of this is not specific to medicine.

But we’re talking specifically about medicine, are we not? Other professions are free to campaign for better pay and conditions if they wish.

I can see I’m not going to change your mind though, you’ve clearly decided your opinion and won’t be swayed, which is fine. Like I said upthread, the opinions of the general public who don’t have much understanding of the wider issues don’t really matter in this debate.

Why is it ridiculous?

I've just knocked a rough chart together - if you graph the total career earnings of a Pret worker starting at 18, against somebody going into medicine at the same age - the crossover point in gross salary earned is somewhere between aged 29 and 31, and that's before I've taken all the additional fees doctors pay such as GMC, student loan repayments, courses, exams, 3 or 4 enforced relocations.

So in that context, it is ridiculous that someone in their mid thirties, making life and death decisions has earned less than someone whose biggest mistake is likely to be forgetting whether it was a soy-milk, or coconut milk in the grande latte.

@Cloudhoppingdancer this particular thread is about doctors. Other professions have equally important problems and those can be discussed elsewhere.

Of course but you're making it sound like only medics have these problems!

Yes but doctors go on earning more and more the older and more tenure they have. No-one at Pret is earning over £100,000 unless they're a regional manager or above. And there's only a few of those.

Maybe the doctors should agree to earn a bit less later on in return for a bit more when they start. But in general it is a very highly paid profession.