To tell you that a newly qualified doctor only earns £29k?

[Drstrike]

Doctors now leave medical school after 5/6 gruelling years of study - with £85k of student debt.

First year post-qualification is £29k, rising to £33k the following year. Then things stagnate around £40k whilst in specialty training.

The first year post-qualification is more supervised. But you are still the first doctor to be bleeped if one of your ward patients starts bleeding post-op, falls and hits their head, has chest pain etc. and you are the one to initiate management then contact your consultant to let them know. You are still covering wards overnight with seniors at a distance. You are still prescribing medications, ordering scans involving radiation, explaining plans to patients and families. You are still a fully qualified doctor - just not with full registration.

This salary is based on a 40-48 hour full time week depending on rota. That means you can be "part time" working 40hrs a week in a job like surgery.

It takes 5/6 years of medical school, 2 years of foundation training, 3 years of core training and 3 years of higher specialty training to become a consultant. That's a commitment of 13 years, generally from the age of 18.

During this time doctors have to pay for their own progression exams (£500-£1000 each).

There are out of hours premia for nights/weekends on top, but in specialties like psychiatry and GP only basic is earnt.

Does this shock you?

It was both clearly. It was about minimising risk to key workers as well

My sister is married to a high flying lawyer. Her kids pretty much never saw their dad growing up as he was home so late. He worked more weekends than not, generally going to the office for at least half a day as well as work at home. Meals out were cancelled with no notice. It was very difficult to book holidays as there was so much uncertainty over days off, and they were often curtailed during the holiday. If not curtailed, he always worked during them including chairing conference calls. None of there children would go anywhere near law as a career or marry a lawyer. I am surprised my sister is still married to him, it was very lonely for her.

This thread makes for poisonous reading.

I applied for medicine just over ten years ago. Of course I researched salary and conditions. Of course I knew it would be hard. What I didn’t expect was for the salary to completely fail to keep pace with inflation, so that between when I applied and now pay has fallen roughly 26% in real terms. I didn’t expect there to be a pandemic, with all the consequences it has had. I didn’t expect the dire levels of understaffing we have now.

I really don’t think the average person realises the sacrifices and work you have to put in to succeed in medicine, or the challenges we face. Why would they? But ultimately that means their opinions on our pay and conditions are meaningless. We are telling you the pay is wildly out of step with the responsibilities. We are telling you the conditions are intolerable. The stats on how many of my peers are leaving speak for themselves.

It’s time to stand up for our profession. I wish it didn’t have to be this way, but I’ll be on the picket line tomorrow.

@OnOldOlympus it does make for poisonous reading indeed 🙁

Solidarity here for you. Dh is a consultant totally supporting his junior team.

@OnOldOlympus

It is a poisonous read, at least it provides a window of what some of the public think. Next time when you consider doing any thing above and beyond what is expected of you, you know the answer!
Healthcare is like any other profession apparently, we just have to change our culture of working.

It saddens me to say this, but it makes sense to go and work where you are valued.

For people who are saying about other professions, NHS has monopoly on doctors and nurses. May be it is time to change that..

@mumsneedwine the problem in the U.K. is that most professions have declined in pay over the last couple of decades. It's shocking how badly everyone is paid in the U.K., not just doctors. But until everyone's pay rises in line with inflation and everyone's pay increases year on year a doctor is unlikely to be treated any differently . Another reason for this is the governments working rules that allows anyone to come from anywhere and take a job. These rules are far more stricter in most European countries.

My neighbour was an Egyptian doctor for example. His family's life improved immensely by moving to the U.K. they were living in a tiny flat with 3 dc and used to dump all their rubbish on their front garden and not give a care in the world about everyone else on the road. But who cares because they were willing to accept much lower pay, reducing everyone else's over the course of time. It is a massive problem but I would still say that anyone going into a profession unaware of this in this day and age has not done their research.

@junkboat so by that logic no one should go into medicine if they've done the research ? Not sure that's a v good plan. Pay has eroded so much even in the 5 years the current graduates started - how were they supposed to anticipate this ? But it's fine, they'll just leave the country.

£14.09 per hour for the first year. Less than in a coffee shop www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/12/junior-doctors-paid-lower-hourly-rate-than-workers-to-get-at-pret

Maybe doctors should quit and go and work in Pret A Manger, if the pay, not to mention the career prospects and pension are better there.

Doctors are in danger of becoming the new teachers. The people that just moan and moan and moan.

errr…. They are quitting in large numbers- please do try to keep up!

They don’t need to go to coffee shops they are going to Countries that actually value respect them. Don’t moan about waiting lists or Gp appointments!

So why are they moaning?

Sorry but doctors crying poverty and comparing themselves to Pret a Manger workers is just ridiculous. Even if they do temporarily earn less as an hourly rate, very early on in a Doctors career, it's disingenuous as Doctors will go on to earn far more and they know it. They are just being greedy, their wages have to be paid for from the public sector purse so for them to be paid more, means either other public sector workers have to be paid less, or the private sector workforce have to pay more tax. Doctors are privileged, let's not forget that.

Oh dear @Florenz . How are they privileged ? All the ones I know went to normal state schools, many from poor homes. Be v grateful they want to do it as otherwise you'd not be treated if sick.
Did you get rejected by any chance - little bit of a chip on those shoulders.

Florenz, you are short-sighted and that bile isn’t good for you either.

No I’m not shocked I knew this already. Wages in this country are stupidly low for everyone. They have huge earning potential once they hit consultant level and a calling for life. Conditions are shitty though, we should be encouraging more doctors and nurses.

or the private sector workforce have to pay more tax.

People in the public sector pay tax too, ffs stop being ignorant. The reality is yes doctors can go on to earn more throughout their careers, but they should also be paid daily from their first days as F1s which isn't the case. If we want an NHS that is free at point of use then yes we as taxpayers need to pay for it, and that includes wages for staff. If we don't then instead of the way you currently pay proportionately into the pot based on your income we can all pay privately for healthcare which will further exasperate financial inequality but going by this thread probably what most people deserve.

Fairly not daily

People in the public sector do not contribute to the tax take, they pay tax to the state out of the money given them to by the state. It's the private sector that pays for it all.

No I was not "rejected" as a doctor, I would have been nowhere near the standard required. It's not something I ever thought about.

A very large proportion of doctors are privately educated, and of those that aren't, most go to either grammar schools or comprehensive schools in salubrious areas, so basically state-funded private schools. Very few come from legitimate working class backgrounds. A very high proportion of doctors are subsidised by their parents well into their working lives.

But until everyone's pay rises in line with inflation

Yay! Increasing inequality and hyperinflation!

I don’t see a lot of difference between paying for a service through taxation and through private funds. Apart from the first doesn’t reward already rich shareholders and reduces inequality. It’s still paying for a service, the same as I pay my bank

So long as you never actually need one...🙄

That’s if you get as far as being a consultant, which isn’t a given. There are multiple bottlenecks at various points in training, with far more applicants than places (despite consultant shortages in those specialties). So to stand a chance of getting a spot on a training programme, people are having years out of training to get experience, do fellowships etc to make themselves more desirable candidates. That means they’ll spend less time as higher earning consultants in the long run.

There are so many costs associated with being a doctor that people don’t appreciate. There’s stuff like GMC fees, indemnity insurance, the mandatory exams (which can be hundreds of pounds a sitting), then when you pass those there’s royal college membership fees. That’s before you even take into account things like a ridiculous commute, because the area you can be sent for training can be enormous (Kent Surrey Sussex anyone?), so you basically get the choice of moving house once a year, or committing to travelling miles to and from work. At least other professions get to choose where they work, to a certain extent.

A decade or so ago, most people waiting until they were consultants to start a family. Now, because of an increase in female doctors, as well as doctors from non-traditional or graduate backgrounds who may be older, plus the way training has become extended, people are starting families earlier in their training, which means you need to try and find childcare for eg night shifts. Not so simple if you’ve had to move to the other end of the country for your job and have no support network you can rely on, and your wages aren’t keeping pace with a skyrocketing cost of living.

I would like much lower taxes (20% of everyone on here's income tax goes to the NHS) and a small state and much less state healthcare provision. No political party gives me that option.

Me too.

@Florenz know many medical students ? Obviously not. Most I know come from regular families who can't support them even through Uni - the students work jobs while studying to pay their bills.

If we had lower taxes how would the benefits system, schooling, police, NHS etc be funded? We need higher taxes to improve and extend public services.