To think restaurants shouldn't be allowed to add service charges?

[Precipice]

Prices are listed on the menu. Maybe the menu has a tiny tiny print somewhere about service charges being added (or maybe it even doesn't!). When it comes to the bill, there it is.

You're already paying for the service in the cost, just as you're paying for someone to prepare whatever you're ordering if it's being prepared, and for the fact that you're there in a restaurant at all.

AIBU to think that if restaurants want to charge you 10 percent more for everything, they should raise their actual prices by 10 percent openly?

Service charges for larger tables exist! I've mostly seen it from 6+. In some places it's gone because it's been extended to all the tables, even for 1.

Some aggressively so because they demand it be taken off before they've even seen the bill. To be honest, I think this is the best solution from the customer's side (though not the best solution overall) and will become more common with service charges becoming more common. It shouldn't be in an aggressive manner, but it seems to make sense to go 'hi, can we get the bill please, and please don't add an automatic service charge' than to get the bill with the service charge and have to get the waiter back to bring another, correct bill instead. It's a case of trying to get the correct bill the first time, without imposed extra charges.

If it's important to you to that level, why wouldn't you ask about it at time of booking/arriving/getting menu's or ordering? Instead of waiting until you're ready for the bill and then stating you want something taken off that isn't even being put on?
Because more than once I've had "Well, most places add it and I don't agree with it, it shouldn't be happening" leaving me standing there like a twat feeling told off for something that's not even happening in that moment, when I reply that we don't add a service charge.
I would have very little control over the place I work adding one should they choose, but I have even less over what other establishments do!

And we don't charge for larger tables, not does the poster I was replying to, I was proposing a solution to the issue that 1x table of 10 will use more time and resources than 5x tables of two, a fairer and more customer friendly solution than adding an automatic and not pointed out service charge to all tables.

And the tone of your reply is exactly what I meant when I said upthread that sometimes, I feel like we're treated like the enemy, rather than someone who does the job because we enjoy it and we like facilitating people enjoying themselves.

Yes, and I bet they charge you for the water you use to wash up and the water customers use to flush the toilet. But, like the cost of turning the lights and heating on, you factor that into the running costs.

Adding a service charge for larger tables has been the case for a long time now. It’s only started creeping in for all tables in the last 10 years or so. And it’s not a ‘London thing’ I had it a while ago in a Suffolk village pub.

Like I say there is no obligation to pay a service charge. The main reason we don't add it is because on the whole most of our customers leave in excess of 15% as a tip for our staff.
Outside of London (not sure about other cities) I don't think it's regularly added - certainly not in the local independents that we go to

And we don't charge for larger tables, not does the poster I was replying to, I was proposing a solution to the issue that 1x table of 10 will use more time and resources than 5x tables of two, a fairer and more customer friendly solution than adding an automatic and not pointed out service charge to all tables.

Your place doesn't, but my point was that imposing a service charge for larger tables on this basis is already an existing practice, though one in some places now replaced by a blanket service charge for all tables. What I'm saying is that your proposed idea has been implemented in the past in other restaurants and continues to be implemented in other restaurants.

To be honest, if you object to the tone of my reply, I'm inclined to assume that the customers you characterise as 'aggressive' may just be acting normally. Customers ask for the bill just based on menu prices because they have prior experience of receiving bills with added charges. That's not an attack on you or on your restaurant. It's just defensive. I don't do this, but I understand that they want to avoid the song and dance of asking for a bill, seeing that the price is wrong, having to raise this with you at that point and get a corrected bill. If the restaurant industry as a whole stopped service charges, you wouldn't get customers actively assuming your restaurant is going to try to rip them off by adding extra charges. It's also odd that you feel defensive over customers trying to make sure there are no added charges, but don't seem to understand that customers may feel defensive over being overcharged.

It's highly unlikely that restaurants would stop charging service charges without some kind of government legislation, and that's not likely to happen any time soon.....VAT is applicable so why would they!

I have no issue with eateries charging a service charge, providing it's stated clearly on the menus that a service charge or gratuity of xx% will be added to your bill. This enables me to do a quick math calculation and weather or not I want to dine at the establishment. I would be extremely pissed off that it was added unexpectedly and I would automatically request its removal.

I'm really surprised by the attitude to tips on here though, as mumsnet always seems predominantly left of centre, and yet tipping absolutely smacks of "the rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate, he made them high and lowly, and ordered their estate". I hated being tipped, I'm not a serf, and I took pride in my job., oh and just because you're leaving me a tip doesn't give you a free pass to grope me (older men seemed to think a 'pat' on my backside was perfectly acceptable, because I'd get a tip). Yes waiting at table is physically hard, yes obnoxious twats abound, but that's true in all customer facing professions, as it is with teaching or clinical work, yes the pay is shit, but so it is if you're a health care assistant, or teaching assistant, or nursery worker, shop assistant or shelf stacker etc.
for the most part I enjoyed my work, but I loathed the tipping culture, and feeling I owed a debt if I was given a particularly generous tip.

Wouldn't it be simpler to just increase their menu price by 10% overall or whatever percent

Service charges that are not explicitly stated on the menu should be illegal and the customer should be legally entitled to not pay anything should an unannounced service charge be levied on them when it comes to paying the bill.

I'm undecided on tipping culture. While in the US I got to know some women who came to New York to work because they could easily earn $2000 a week in tips. If you did away with tipping and paid the NMW or even a bit more, they'd earning less than a third of that.

You can be inclined to think what you want of course about what I term as 'aggressive' - but what I was referring to was the customers who ask for the bill and add comments like "And I won't be paying a service charge/and you can remove the service charge before it comes because I'm not paying it!" Or similar, like they seem to think they've got me somehow and when I reply that we don't add a service charge, they don't seem happy as you would think, they go on to lecture me about how the hospitality industry need to change this and how wrong it is (there is the occasional 'oh good') - based on precisely nothing because we don't add a service charge, and I'm not in charge of the hospitality industry, so basically because I'm serving them that night, I am somehow responsible for the way other establishments are run and the fact that other places charge a service charge.

There's no need when you can just ask at any point if a service charge will be added, and ask for it not to. I'm not responsible for the way other businesses are run, what they've charged you and how they treated you, only what happens (to a certain degree) where I work, so no, I don't understand the defensiveness from people who behave like that.
In the same way that I don't approach and treat every customer thinking they're going to make a malicious complaint to get free stuff, or start grabbing at my junior staff, or abuse any one of the team because we've had it happen many times before, until they prove otherwise.

At least find out first if you're going to actually get charged the service charge before you start getting all defensive and snippy with someone who's not going to in the first place. I don't say anything and nod along and smile, but I am allowed to be pissed off about being told off on behalf of the hospitality businesses that do add a service charge. Like I said, I wish it wasn't allowed to happen because it would save scenes like that.

Your tone came across the same way as above, ready to jump down my throat over the slightest little thing - even when I'm in agreement with you over the service charges, and about the adding on for larger tables, as you are so at pains to tell me, some places do add it on for larger tables - because as pp pointed out, they use more resources - is it not preferable to all prices increasing to cover these incidental costs that a) the service charge is added to tables above a certain amount of covers and not all tables by default as this appears to be a big issue with it, and b) the customer is informed of the service charge ahead of time when they book/arrive so they are aware - so they can make an informed choice, which many have said here is the thing they object to.
Many have said that they would prefer to be aware of the total price at ordering, what I said (and yes, I know that some places do this before you tell me again) achieves that because under 10 people you pay the price on the menu and leave a tip if you want and over 10 people you pay the price on the menu plus 10%(or whatever) because the larger tables take more resources.

I'm literally saying what others are saying they would prefer - yet for some reason you're feeling the need to be patronising about it and that's a common thing towards hospitality staff - as much as people try to deny they do it.

Hmm. I feel torn on this. Saddens me when people don't tip, not even a couple of pounds for good service. I did waitressing all my life and even though I nearly always gave good service, when I was busy people would wait for their change. The bill was £4.80, Give me a £5 and wait for the 20p change.

But automatic 10%, especially on big parties is sometimes unfair. Big parties can be hard work, but not always, not necessarily any more than any other table.

I later felt this was a bit unfair on me recently. I organised my party in a restaurant, 12. £600 so 10% service was £60 which seemed like quite a lot, and it was automatically included. I would have left a tip but I wanted to choose how much. I organised pre booking of all starters, mains, cocktails and drinks. Service was fine. But having been a waitress and a pub owner, this table was no more work than anyone else. Plus I'd made it so much easier by going to the trouble of pre booking everything. I just felt afterwards that the fact it was so much more than what the service is for us as a family of 4 when we eat there occasionally, £10 or £60, seems a bit harsh.

"1x table of 10 will use more time and resources than 5x tables of two"

I'm not sure that's always the case. In actual fact serving 5 tables of 2, seating them, acknowledging them, offering menus, exposing meals if the day, clearing away extra cutlery, drinks and water, serving starters then mains, checking food is ok. Presenting bill. Doing machine transaction. Later cleaning and re-laying 5 separate tables.

5 times. Across 5 different tables. How is that less work than serving 1 table of 10?

Taking an order from a table of 10 almost always takes significantly longer than 5 tables of 2. And the group is normally there significantly longer and if a restaurant is busy it may have to keep tables clear of customers in order to have the 10 seats ready for the table of 10 when they come in. Also, they are normally louder and more disruptive to other customers than 5 tables of 2 (few smaller tables like being seated next to a big party).

But mainly it’s coordinating 10 meals to come out at (roughly!) the same time that’s way more difficult and so uses more resources than 5 tables of 2.

I rarely tip. If 10 or 20% needs to be added to the price, then display it on the menu.
That said, if I receive exceptional service, then I tip. But that is rare.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

Your posts come across as though you simply resent waiting staff earning more than minimum wage.

Yanbu. Prior to NMW I was a waitress and paid a pittance but that was because restaurants knew customers made up for it in tips (I'd easily double my wages in tips).

NMW changed that, as now waiting staff earn the same as other low skilled jobs that don't get tips, eg retail workers. So the business expenses increased and the menu prices reflect that. Yet sometimes service charges and tips are still expected.

I think tips should be banned, it's open to abuse and when in cash it's likely untaxed.

@SFHJ thank you, that’s really interesting.

@OrangeBlossum Tips do not attract VAT, it's up to the employees to disclose them to HMRC as part of their income.
Service charges however do attract VAT and as most customers payments are paid by card now, there is no way of avoiding that

I'm happy to pay tips, service charge, whatever

We have tried many things. Put the prices up so we could continue to pay above minimum wage to our staff. Customers complained it was too expensive. The prices where raised by no more than £1 a dish and we are still cheaper than others. We never force the service charge. Some people ask to tip which is fine. But we get that dish is too expensive and then tip on top. But we have taken the service charge off. So we can't win. Whatever the establishment does someone will complain..

And how do you know the staff are on minimum wage? Ours aren't!

We are honestly thinking if selling up soon. We love our place and treat our staff well. But customers complaina bout everything. Put prices up because everything has gone up so we can pay staff above minimum wage but that's not good enough for customers because its too expensive yet They don't want to tip but can't understand why if we didn't do both of those things we couldn't pay staff more. So it's either higher prices or lower prices with a service charge/tip.

You don’t pay minimum wage? Is that even legal?

I assume the poster means they pay above minimum wage...... Judging by the rest of their post and that they say they put prices up to continue paying minimum wage 🤷🏼‍♀️

I said we pay more than minimum wage!