Did you know ABA is widely considered abuse?

[PennyRa]

I may be trying to kite a derailment a little bit but I also feel like it deserves its own thread?

I wouldn't call it abusive at all, for myself, it is highly effective. I'm not autistic but my son and although hasn't yet had any "treatment" other than SALT, I would consider it for him because of how beneficial it has been for myself with my diagnosis. Many behavioural therapy methods are considered unethical or abusive these days but until you've tried everything else with nothing but failure, you never really know.

I do know that some people consider it abuse, and I do know that the way Løvås developed it in the 60-s it certainly was abusive towards the children. They were not allowed to stim, were forced to maintain eye contact, there were strange punishments for not achieving the behaviour Løvås wanted.

I also know that it is NOT what is happening in ABA today. Not by a country mile.

My non-verbal DD learned to toilet, to dress herself, letters and numbers AND to blow bubbles.
It was hard work for her, but always with plenty of fun, encouragement, and yes little treats to keep her going (small bits of chocolate or biscuits, favourite game, songs, bouncing or anything she loved).
She has learned to read and write a bit - which she loves because she can go on YouTube and find her favourites there without me needing to first decipher what she wants and then try to search for it - inadequately!

As Temple Grandin pointed out only last year: there seems to be a LOT of very verbally eloquent self-diagnosed autistic people who think that no autistic people should learn anything and that it us abuse to try to teach them self care, to read, to not stim inappropriately in public (and yes, some stimming IS inappropriate in public but absolutely fine at home) - and in doing so are dismantling services that are CRUCIAL for those autistic people who are less high functioning.

My DD will need care all her life. Her autism IS a handicap for her, because she cannot communicate with people who don’t know her extremely well, she can most likely not study and have a job, she will lash out physically and noisily if exposed to too much stimuli.
ABA has given her more communication tools and amazingly the ability to read and write (with limitations). It allowed her to stop wearing a nappy to school at age 8-9 (dignity) and she loves to chill, sing, act out scenes from Peppa Pig with her iPad. It has helped her hone her echolalia so she can use phrases to express her needs occasionally.

All this to say I think it is extremely unwise to Brand ABA as abusive if you know fuck all about it.
have a [buiscuit]

I wouldn't choose it personally and I would take the views and opinions of those who have directly experienced the therapy themselves over what parents/aba therapists think.

I used it with my son when he was younger. It was great fun for him. The questionnaires were helpful as they really managed to pinpoint what the barriers to his communication were. He struggled to understand sequencing. So ABA took it back to basics showed him pictures and asked him to put them in order, next step say this, then this then this. Next step say first you butter the bread then make sandwich then eat sandwich. He enjoyed doing it as we focused it on his special interests (at that time 3 little pigs). It was simply positive reinforcement, identifying communication needs, breaking things that are hard down into smaller steps. He came on leaps and bounds in every way and by the time he was ready to go to school he made friends easily as he could express himself. Salt was very similar but less intensive, more of a blunt tool. The intensity was only an issue for me as he loved plsying those games and whenever he was with peers and playing we would back off. If i had had a child that liked playing alone it might not have worked as wellbut mine desperately wanted connections, he just didnt know how.

🤔 Having both NT children and a child with autism, it’s really not the same. You are very ignorant.

Had to use it to teach my youngest nudity in public was not an option he loves splash pads he hates the feeling of wet clothing it took compromise (on clothing type) and rewards based on compliance for him to now remain dressed in public if he gets wet at a splash park I consider it a win for him to enjoy normal childhood things

Most SALT for minimally verbal Autistic people is based on ABA. Obviously almost no one would agree with how it was done in the 60’s and I’m sure abusive and bad practices still continue. But the difference that gentle ABA can make for some children is astounding.

My dc (17 years of ABA and counting, across home programmes, and 3 schools) has never had any abusive behaviour modifications, or any other type of abuse.

ABA has helped with:

stopping socially unacceptable behaviours ( NOT harmless hand flaps and stims, but things like masturbating, or poo smearing)

recognising socially acceptable behaviours are needed and essential in some situations. Eg, my dc adores going to the theatre. She has had to learn how to behave in a theatre if she wants to see a show. Yes, there are relaxed performances, but not often enough, and often not at convenient times, so if she wants to go to a show (and she really does want to go to shows), then appropriate behaviour is necessary. No aversive methods used, just lots of patience, explaining, and building up her ability and understanding slowly over time.

teaching her how to interact with her siblings, and how to play.

teaching her how to read and write, how to dress herself, and how to manage a lot of her personal care.

teaching her how to cook simple meals, how to organise herself, and how to help herself too. She often now reminds me about the things she wants or needs for a day out, will discuss if she wants certain sensory objects with her, whether she needs eg ear defenders, can make choices about how to spend her time.

all of this is possible due to the individual curriculum she has had, focussing on working on the next best step for her, in a way that she can engage with, at a pace she can tolerate. None of it has been abusive in any way, and none of it has been designed to stop her being herself, but to help her get what she wants out of her life.

she currently has work experience in a small office, where she can answer the phone, take messages, and help with filing. She has had great success volunteering at a pre-school, helping with early phonics work and singing groups.

she is currently undertaking a course of therapy (general therapy, via NHS referral) which she has chosen to do to try to help with a phobia she has. Is working on that, and ‘changing who she is’ more acceptable because it isn’t being delivered via ABA?

@ALotLikeYou Perhaps I have worded it badly, or perhaps the PP has. I really don't consider children being made "uncomfortable or distressed" synonymous with abuse. I may have a different understanding of distressed to the PP.

I don't have enough knowledge about this therapy to comment in detail. However this comment stood out to me.

I'm sorry you find me ignorant. That wasn't my intention.

@turbonerd can you link me to the Temple Grandin position on that? I just read a fairly negative blog piece about her which indicates she is pro 'HFA' and an advocate for ABA

intheloopaboutneurodiversity.wordpress.com/2019/07/21/why-temple-grandin-is-not-my-hero/

Just trying to understand

Ex Aba therapist here so I can tell you that you are wrong. Its not abuse. Every ABA program is tailored to the child’s needs. Some of the things I have help some of my clients achieve:

Verbal and non verbal communication depending on the child . As a result of learning how to communicate their needs, there is usually a significant reduction in particular behaviours. Some children may display certain behaviour as they don’t know how to communicate their needs and it’s extremely frustrating when people don’t understand you.

Expanding interests - so the child is now engaging in several different hobbies and interests and also developing independent play skills.

Brushing teeth independently.

Wearing clothes independently.

Writing recipes and coooking.

Using public transport and everything that involves getting ready to leave the house.

Doing shopping and independently putting things away.

The list goes on. The goal is to help unlock their potential and assist them with tasks to help them achieve as much independence as possible.

It’s interesting that ABA advocates talk about what is achieved. The issue is how it’s achieved and how the person feels.

It was in The Guardian just last autumn. I’m sure you can Google it because my phone is crap at links.
I don’t know what HFA is.

She is practical, whereas a lot of «advocates» are away with the fucking faeries. One notable endravour from one of those «advocates» was that autistic children should only be cared for and taught by autistic adults. What a fucking nightmare. No consideration to how that would play out at all

@OneFrenchEgg
my answer was for you.

Thanks @turbonerd I've always avoided Grandin as I got sick of people asking if I'd heard of her and I didn't relate to her from what I'd seen. I'll try again.

I have read that the science behind ABA is the same as the conversion therapies that were use on gay people, although obviously with different applications. I’ve also read autistic adults saying how traumatic they found it. So, maybe it’s not always abusive (I don’t know) but based on those things I’d certainly say it can be.

Let's stick with the context of ABA therapy and autistic children. 'Plenty of' is irrelevant.

@OneFrenchEgg
what a ridiculous article.
Do you even understand what Grandin is talking about when she talks about the most severe forms of autism?

Yes, everyone born is precious. But not everyone born (and their family) is receiving the support they need to survive - and that support is tenfold if you have a severely autistic child. You NEED a lot of support to survive physically, mentally, economically.
The child NEEDS a lot of support to live a life that is good and with dignity - all their life. There’s a lot of co-morbidities and sensitivities: digestive problems, lack of sleep, malnutrition, dental problems, hygiene related problems. There are mountains of washing, extremely limited social life, very reduced ability to work, parental illness due to exhaustion.

This Is what Temple Grandin is talking about.

amp.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/15/autistic-scholar-temple-grandin-the-education-system-is-screening-out-visual-thinkers

I can find this bit I don't think it's saying what you said, I'll keep looking.

Do you even understand what Grandin is talking about when she talks about the most severe forms of autism?

what a weird question.

Would you rather not be allowed to go out because your behaviour is grossly inappropriate/ offensive/ illegal or with help , you can go out and do things you enjoy ?

My question was where to find the bit about eloquent self diagnosis and this impacting services for those with severe ASD.

That can be achieved without abuse