to expect my well educated friends to realise the derogatory nature of their language?

[auntyspan]

i have a very dear friend who I have known for years. Last week she described someone (some hoodlum in Asda) as a 'mong'. I was utterly shocked that someone so educated and cultured as her could use such a term.

I discussed it with my DH and he said there was a couple of blokes in his office that used the term too - and suggested I might be a little over sensitive as my nephew has Downs Syndrome.

AIBU to expect this term to have died last century?

I don't see it as being politically correct to not be insulting though, I didn't before I had DS2 either.

Frankly what people choose to say or think in their own homes is of no concern to me, it would be however if they ever said it out loud in my ear shot.

slightlycrumpled I agree what people say in there own home is none of my business but I am glad people who have manners think first before they they comment on people disabilities, colour, religion etc... it has made my daily life more pleasant. With that I do hope if I have made a comment I'm out of line people will correct me. The more nice friends I can make the better.
Rude people will be kept at arms length.

Quite right starbear.

How lovely of you to say so, slightlycrumpled

"My DH often calls idiotic people 'spanners'. Apparently, that term derives from the word 'spastic'"

I always thought "spanner" was a "tool" as well. Can't see how it relates to "spastic".

Sadly I think the spanner thing goes

spastic- spazzer - spanner

However DH has been known to use it and also spooner 9has been stopped now!), and he thought it was far more benign

Which in many ways it is. Until you know.

Then that's it really.

I'm afraid that I think that if you use words that you know are nasty whenever you think you won't get caught then you aren't very nice really. The English language has thousands of words, it is one of the richest in the world, so why choose to use offensive words at all.

I can't believe that anyone would use the term mongel/monge in any context. It was never used in an affirmative way because it comes from a time when children with disabilities were not held to be full humans but to be generally disposed and kept out of sight (and has connotations with the earlier idea that children with DS type disabilities were really changelings). Similarly with 'flid' which I too remember as an unpleasant playground insult, which we were perfectly away came form Thalidomide, as we had a disability rights group come and visit us at school, including some very powerful advocates who had Thalidomide deformities.

Similarly how can one possibly say that the older medical terms for those with mental and physical disabilities were neutral when again they were from an age where disabilities were felt to be dehumanising and to be shut away in asylums etc? and in any case the medical profession is often amongst the worst when it comes to treating their patients with respect, and/or referring to them by their disability/ailment rather than name.

I agree that it isn't nice to go on using terms to, about or in front of someone who has said that they find the particular terms offensive, however I do think people should be less quick to take offence when none is intended (older people using the word 'coloured' instead of 'black/asian' because to them it's the more polite term, or people who are not speaking their native language making an error without wishing to be insulting). It is possible to be extremely unkind and rude to/about someone who is different in any way without using any contentious terms at all.

Re learning disability/difficulty.
I tend to use learning difficulty because the people I worked with who had LD prefered this term.

At an appointment with my DS last week I was informed that he was classed as having learning difficulties rather than learning disabilities. This is because to be classed as learning disabled you have to have an IQ of around 69.

Its not that I want a big ol label slapped on my little boy's head but the term learning difficulties doesnt really cover his issues. Dyslexia is a learning difficulty, not being able to understand an instruction or answer a question is more than that surely?

Ironically the people i used to work with would be offically classed as learning disabled , like it or not.

Its all a bit confusing.

(PS. Whats with all the old posts popping back up on MN lately?)

Re learning disability/difficulty.
I tend to use learning difficulty because the people I worked with who had LD prefered this term.

At an appointment with my DS last week I was informed that he was classed as having learning difficulties rather than learning disabilities. This is because to be classed as learning disabled you have to have an IQ of around 69.

Its not that I want a big ol label slapped on my little boy's head but the term learning difficulties doesnt really cover his issues. Dyslexia is a learning difficulty, not being able to understand an instruction or answer a question is more than that surely?

Ironically the people i used to work with would be offically classed as learning disabled , like it or not.

Its all a bit confusing.

(PS. Whats with all the old posts popping back up on MN lately?)

That was NOT my fault!

Thanks slightlycrumpled I wasn't aiming to be profound though

I agree solidgold - there are many ways to be unpleasant/undermining and/or discriminatory, and insulting terms are but one of them. I expect that all of us have at one time or another used the wrong term for something, I just hope that most of us, on learning that it might cause others distress would choose to use another word in future. For example I never associated the term "eppie" with Epilepsy (I'm not sure if I have personally used it, but I have certainly heard it around and didn't really give it much thought, even though my dn has severe, brain damaging epilepsy) but when it was raised here as being offensive I registered that it wasn't a good phrase to use, and won't in future. I'd hope that is how most people would react, out of courtesy if nothing else. Personally I would judge from the context whether or not someone was being abusive or just a little out of touch when using terms that are not OK and react accordingly, either with a gentle "are you aware that that might be deeply offensive" or with a "get behind me, you [sexist/racist/disablist etc etc]"...

Solidgold - you may have a point there - we get regualr race and diversity awareness training and the one message that is repeated ad infinitum (generally in answer to people new to the job and feigning paranoia about what word is right to use for what) is that it's not the word, it's the attitude behind it that really matters.

chegirl I think the problem is the breadth of the spectrum. My ds struggled with school to start with. The teacher said he was just a bit emotionally immature, but the SENCO was convinced he was autistic. We tended to think that the teacher was right as we know a few people who are severely autistic, and it just seemed daft to say that my ds was in the same category. He was a bit of a handful, sure, and has some difficulties that do come on the scale (he is dyslexic, and still has some challenges with fitting in and controlling his emotions five years after that initial conversation) but I wouldn't even really say he had learning difficulties, because they are confined to very specific areas - I would just tend to describe where he struggles in an educational context. But a category that is so broad as to encompass issues that many of us struggle with and overcome daily with major and significant differences such as total lack of communication, or the complete inability to understand consequences is so broad as to be meaningless I think.

Interesting post Nooka.

I also think there is a problem reconciling the medical idea of LD with the social.

Or the medial model of any disability with the social model.

The problem I have there Nooka is the kids who would be trapped by a DX if the spectrum were shrunk.

I'll see if I can explain

DS1 is rightly dx'd as HFA /AS and had an excellent language age at 6. In the last 18 months or so his language has become much worse- at school he only uses a very few words, the majority are 'cheesy' 'schmubu' (?) and a sort of hum. I popped in yesterday and he was wandering the corridor flapping and repeating schmubu.

Kids on the sprectrum don't always do as you'd predict.

My real issue i suppose with shrinking the spectrum is the help ione receives is related to being on it; DS3 is amrkedly ASD< very poor language, in a SNU, won't be independene. It is however ds1's needs- severe aggression, complete inability to form social relationships not absed on violence etc- that control our lives with regards to lack of childcare, constant supervision needs. SS is looking all the time for reasons to pull support and have removed AS / HFA as a qualifier; the only help we get with ds1. classes as neesding HR DLA and severely affected by school is from the NAS. Take that away and I see our familoy situation lpummeting rapidly. Whereas ds3 getsw no help outsideschoolbut we can cope as really his needs amount to pretty much thesame as those of a 2-3 year old (he's almost 6).

I get the points about bradth of spectrum but think that in very real terms famillies like mine will be the losers if it were changed, fortunawely the NAS, paed etc all recognise this.

BTW in no way does that mean I don't acknowledge the severity of those at the most severe end of the spectrm, I recognise that DS3 with some language etc doesn't class as severe himself. howevcer the presence of extremely badly affected children doesn't mrean that those with a lesser presentation don't need support. Two children unable to live independently or function in society is a tragedy regardless of what their dx may be as a child. I ahve no idea what the future holds for ds1- the Head reassures me that he has some kind of future but that's it- I can't imagine total independence right now but he still has just over 8 years until adulthood. I'd love some input to help us get him there as the demands of two dependant children upon us when we retire will be high and already DH is claiming Carers now as I can no longer restrain ds1 or cope with his agression against me.

DS1 is usunusual: he almost presents with severe AS LOL if it existed but there has to be that rbeadth to allow his support. At the same time I understand why people with other forms of ASD would begrudge it a bit as the complete absence of help with ds3 is a joke and I know its not much better elewhere on the spectrum. there's also a compound effect as well obviously- two disabled children- and the systems refuse toa cknowledge that as well. hey ho

Oh I know it's not always that straightforward. I just think that a more useful terminology might help because there is just so much variation (on all sorts of factors). My experiences are a little like yours (abet second hand) - my neice has DS and is autistic, but apart from the difficulties of having a toddler in a 13 year old's body is relatively easy to care for (she is in general very content with the right stimulus, fairly predicable, if a little noisy and inclined to eat surprising things). My nephew on the other hand has uncontrollable epilepsy. When unwell he is fairly out of it, and when well has very Aspergers like behaviour. Neither will ever live independently, but finding the right care for my nephew is much much more difficult because he is unpredictable, doesn't understand personal space, and can get very angry, so he scares people at times (he can also be very loving and sees the world in interesting ways when he is well enough to tell you about it).

But I do agree although having a child with severe disabilities is very difficult, getting access to help is much easier. For those unable to cope with normal life but not so obviously severely disabled it is much much trickier. There should be much much more help and assistance, more research into why brains work and what is going on when they don't tick in the way we might expect, and better design of schools so they aren't so scary and disorientating for so many children who can survive and even thrive at primary and then have a horrible miserable (and ultimately pointless) time at secondary. I think that would benefit all children too as well. It would help to have so called "specialists" in schools (I'm thinking SENCOs here) who were much more highly trained and selected much more carefully.

So I wouldn't advocate shrinking the spectrum so much as diversifying it - after all at present as with many learning disability issues it's all very descriptive and slightly subjective (because we still don't know enough about how the brain works). But then sometimes I'm not sure that having a more precise diagnosis is that helpful either (dn probably has Lennox-Gastaut rather than epilepsy + autism).

Lennox GAstaualt is scary

Sorry if i gto defensive blush], NAS is only help we get so I get scared when people talk about separating AS, whilst I get it overall there are several peopleI know like ourselves who would simply just fall into the big gap.

We need definitions of where severe / moderate etc lie; ds1 may e AS but is definitely moderately disabled, as has no independene at an age where friends are being allowed out etc and is a risk to others; i'm trying to get back into employment atm and that may eman invoking the DDA to force SS to help us with after school care. That's not my definiteion of mild! OTOH I know for some who have very severe SN ds1 must seem almost NT (those who know us and our issues rarely do but YGWIM)

The answer is clear- more help for any kid who is disabled on the basis of whats needed, and professionsal who can look further than a label. Kids don't become asd the minute they get a DX, or for any other SN for that matter. And a child who will always (or likely) have significant independene issues is ultimately very abdly affected- because that independence is in many ways what matters isn't it?

if things go on the way they are I suspect ds1's care will ultiamtely beocme the responsibility of ewither the prison or psychiatric services, which is terrifying. the other side though is that I may end up aring for 2 disbaled children both needing a lot of physical care (ds1 aggression, ds3 basics like dressing) way beyond the age I can physically do it. Thats pretty scary tbh.

On a lighter note; ds3 is awaiting assessment by Child Psych for feras / bizarre beliefs etc; had a letter from them today just wondering if we'd heard of the NAS as they could offer insight into AS whilst waiting?

Made me PMSL; we ahve a MAS volunteer weekly, I did my Uni work project on them and was accepted for ASD MA (but cant aford to do it).

It's all quite wrong, and to be honest the service providers know that too, it's just that disability services are so invisible (in a political sense anyway) that the resources are not there in the way they should be, as you say on a needs based and flexible basis, given that issues change over time and families coping strategies too. My sister has found an excellent specialist college for dn (one of very few that can cope with his medical and social needs) - they are just waiting to see if the money will come to pay for it. I imagine that it will be very expensive.