Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think Gavin Williamsons views on teachers have been found out and he is trying to back pedal

377 replies

cakeorwine · 02/03/2023 08:05

Leaked WhatsApp messages about schools during Covid and re-opening.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/01/leaked-messages-boris-johnson-bemoaning-face-masks-u-turn

In October 2020, Williamson said publicly the following year’s exams would be postponed for a few weeks to make up teaching time. According to the leaked messages, Hancock then got in touch with his cabinet colleague to say “what a bunch of absolute arses the teaching unions are”.

Williamson replied: “I know they really really do just hate work.” Hancock then responded with a laughing emoji and a bullseye.

Dr Mary Bousted, joint general secretary of the National Education Union, said in response to the leak: “Why am I utterly unsurprised to now have it absolutely confirmed that Gavin Williamson was unfit to be secretary of state for education?”

According to Williamson, these comments were about "some unions" and he has the utmost respect for teachers who went above and beyond during the pandemic.

Yet it's the teachers who would be doing the work, not the Unions. So who was he saying who "really really just hate work"

OP posts:
Strawberrysosweet · 02/03/2023 14:47

I don’t know! What is it a case of?

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 14:49

And teachers are paid better than a graduate trainee in a supermarket generally (especially when you consider pension) and work shorter hours and get more holidays. It’s a different job yes, but not more difficult for the right person.

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 14:52

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 02/03/2023 14:47

Ok so I looked into this alleged shortage of jobs for teachers in Scotland and it seems the issue is rather a reliance on temp contracts and supply rather than permanent posts being offered: news.stv.tv/scotland/scottish-teachers-struggling-amid-cost-of-living-crisis-as-few-permanent-contracts-being-offered

quote from the article: "“There needs to be more teachers. We’re trying to reduce class sizes, but unfortunately, we’re not hiring any teachers.
“So, there might be a teacher shortage, but there’s also a shortage of vacancies.”"

So not a case of there simply being too many teachers, is it?

There are more teachers than jobs l. That’s what it’s a case of. This has been common over the years and let to the Scottish government cutting training places. In Scotland certainly if we increased training places we could easily train way more than we need. As it is we train a bit more than we need.

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 14:55

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 02/03/2023 14:18

It suddenly occurs to me, teaching and nursing are two largely female-dominated professions which have changed enormously in the last 20 years or so, and the people doing them (largely women) are turning around and asking for their pay and conditions to change to reflect this change and are being told to shut up and sit down and think of all the harm they are doing to others making all this fuss. Probably a hearty dose of misogyny at play here too - women aren't supposed to have standards or set boundaries or advocate for themselves, they're just supposed to keep on bending over backwards and picking up more and more and more and never complain.

Show quote history

Nurses are actually asked to do a lot more than they used to and the profession is now graduate only. That isn’t at all what has happened to teachers though. In fact it’s gone the other way (fewer hours, more standardization and so on).

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2023 14:56

yes of course we do need teachers and good ones but average graduates with an aptitude for teaching kids will do nicely.

We’re not getting anyone, do you not understand? There are classes who don’t have a teacher at all, let alone a competent one.

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 14:57

Knitterofcrap · 02/03/2023 14:07

There’s a basic lack of understanding from some posters about what a trade union is. It’s a group of organised workers.

So you can’t say comments about teaching unions aren’t about teachers. The union members are teachers, or in some cases, other staff who work in schools/education.

To be fair to mumsnetters though, it seems even the government ministers responsible couldn’t grasp this simple fact.

The behaviour and views of the union isn’t necessarily that of its individual members never mind all teachers. Someone needs to go back to school…

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 02/03/2023 14:57

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 14:47

Teachers don’t work long hours compared to other professions and it’s not a highly competitive job like law or medicine. Once you take the pension into account there are few graduate jobs that would match the salary. it’s also not an exceptionally difficult job or very highly skilled like a surgeon for example. It doesn’t require the very best graduates nor does it tend to get them.

yes of course we do need teachers and good ones but average graduates with an aptitude for teaching kids will do nicely.

Show quote history

Do you have kids?? I am so baffled by this. People spitting feathers at their child's education being 'disrupted' by strikes (less time off than you'd have with the chickenpox all told) but apparently have zero respect for the abilities of the same teachers who are apparently singlehandedly wrecking their child's chances by taking a few days off on strike. Teaching not a difficult job?? Are you for real? 30+ human beings with totally different ability levels and capabilities, who all need to somehow take in the same information to a similar degree, whilst also managing 30+ people's interconnecting relationships and personalities, pastoral wellbeing, keeping an eye out for potential vulnerabilities/abuse and taking appropriate action on that...

Seriously where are you getting your information/opinions? Are you a teacher or do you know any? Do you have school aged kids? 'Average graduates with an aptitude for teaching kids' are not exactly lining up to be sneered at and treated like shit are they. Far less the kind of brilliant, inspirational teachers who can change lives.

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 14:59

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2023 14:56

yes of course we do need teachers and good ones but average graduates with an aptitude for teaching kids will do nicely.

We’re not getting anyone, do you not understand? There are classes who don’t have a teacher at all, let alone a competent one.

As I’ve said already there are too many teachers in Scotland and not jobs for them. It has been like that for at least 30 years. Yet they want a huge pay rise. Something doesn’t add up.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 02/03/2023 15:00

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 14:52

There are more teachers than jobs l. That’s what it’s a case of. This has been common over the years and let to the Scottish government cutting training places. In Scotland certainly if we increased training places we could easily train way more than we need. As it is we train a bit more than we need.

Show quote history

I've read a couple of articles now and they all say the issue is casualisation, and schools cycling through teachers on their probationary year because they're cheaper rather than giving the existing staff coming to the end of their probationary year a permanent post. If you have any sources other than your all-knowing opinion to cite saying that it's actually that Scotland is stuffed with teachers and all the teaching posts are currently occupied with permanently appointed staff then please do share.

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2023 15:02

As I’ve said already there are too many teachers in Scotland and not jobs for them.

However you also claimed that there wasn’t a shortage of teachers in the South West of England which is balls.

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 15:02

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 02/03/2023 14:57

Do you have kids?? I am so baffled by this. People spitting feathers at their child's education being 'disrupted' by strikes (less time off than you'd have with the chickenpox all told) but apparently have zero respect for the abilities of the same teachers who are apparently singlehandedly wrecking their child's chances by taking a few days off on strike. Teaching not a difficult job?? Are you for real? 30+ human beings with totally different ability levels and capabilities, who all need to somehow take in the same information to a similar degree, whilst also managing 30+ people's interconnecting relationships and personalities, pastoral wellbeing, keeping an eye out for potential vulnerabilities/abuse and taking appropriate action on that...

Seriously where are you getting your information/opinions? Are you a teacher or do you know any? Do you have school aged kids? 'Average graduates with an aptitude for teaching kids' are not exactly lining up to be sneered at and treated like shit are they. Far less the kind of brilliant, inspirational teachers who can change lives.

Show quote history

I know lots of teachers and have kids at school. No one is “spitting feathers” or any of the other nonsense you say. I don’t think there is widespread support in Scotland for teachers strikes, certainly not where I live.

Teaching is not a uniquely difficult job. If you find it thus, perhaps you would be better suited to do something else. Be prepared for a pay cut though.

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 15:05

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2023 15:02

As I’ve said already there are too many teachers in Scotland and not jobs for them.

However you also claimed that there wasn’t a shortage of teachers in the South West of England which is balls.

You already said hysterically that “we’re not getting anyone” which is clearly “balls” as you put it.

also if teaching is such a difficult job with such long hours, how come you have all day to post about it on mumsnet?

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 15:07

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 02/03/2023 15:00

I've read a couple of articles now and they all say the issue is casualisation, and schools cycling through teachers on their probationary year because they're cheaper rather than giving the existing staff coming to the end of their probationary year a permanent post. If you have any sources other than your all-knowing opinion to cite saying that it's actually that Scotland is stuffed with teachers and all the teaching posts are currently occupied with permanently appointed staff then please do share.

Show quote history

It’s been difficult to get a job as a teacher all my adult life. It’s not hard to look it up so you do so.

SoCrossAboutThis · 02/03/2023 15:12

I tell all my students (I’m a uni lecturer) to never put something in a WhatsApp message that they’re not happy with either me reading, or the rest of the cohort, or one of our senior placement managers. Because I can guarantee that every year some student drops another student in it regarding private messages. It’s basic bloody common sense!

Even if they thought that sort of stuff, putting it down in black and white is beyond stupid. And handing it over to a journalist is beyond comprehension. Verbally say it if you must because at least it’s then deniable.

SoCrossAboutThis · 02/03/2023 15:13

also if teaching is such a difficult job with such long hours, how come you have all day to post about it on mumsnet?

I do hate such comments, some people do work part time!

Tepidexplorer · 02/03/2023 15:19

😂

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2023 15:19

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 15:05

You already said hysterically that “we’re not getting anyone” which is clearly “balls” as you put it.

also if teaching is such a difficult job with such long hours, how come you have all day to post about it on mumsnet?

Show quote history

“Hysterically” Hmm

Ask schools in England whether they’ve been in the situation of having no applicants for a job and then decide whether “hysterical” is an appropriate word.

Then look at the teacher recruitment figures for next year www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4752592-utterly-disastrous-teacher-trainee-applications-for-next-year

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 02/03/2023 15:23

SueVineer · 02/03/2023 15:02

I know lots of teachers and have kids at school. No one is “spitting feathers” or any of the other nonsense you say. I don’t think there is widespread support in Scotland for teachers strikes, certainly not where I live.

Teaching is not a uniquely difficult job. If you find it thus, perhaps you would be better suited to do something else. Be prepared for a pay cut though.

Show quote history

I'm not a teacher. I know it would be beyond me. Even though the job I'm in gets me more money, and shorter hours, its' a piece of piss by comparison.

MrsHerculePoirot · 02/03/2023 15:26

🤣🤣🤣🤣 teachers work fewer hours than they used to 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Where are you getting these untruths from?!?!?

Intergalacticcatharsis · 02/03/2023 15:47

Head of Maths at my DC’s grammar is an ex banker with a First in Maths from a highly regarded university. I doubt people of that calibre are working in supermarkets at middle management level. There is a history teacher of similar calibre. Those two teachers are in charge of Oxbridge applicants and probably one of the reasons the school is doing so well with their Oxbridge applicants in recent years.

Perhaps there should be more of a drive to get professionals burnt out or bored of other professions (because they now have enough money) to get into teaching to give back. That could work.

However, nobody can say that Maths and Physics teachers do easy jobs that do not require a lot of brain power. One can easily see why Maths/Physics graduates can get highly paid tech and banking jobs instead. Perhaps some teachers in certain subjects just need to be paid more also based on performance? And governments/local authorities need to fund accordingly.

FrippEnos · 02/03/2023 15:58

Botw1
Nah. You can't always blame the ee unions govt for everything

I haven't

The unions behaved awfully during the pandemic. They have to take responsibility for that.

See previous post

Teaching unions and some teachers vastly over exaggerated the risk of covid for no identifiable reason.

Except that they went by what the government told them. So who is to blame?

They want to avoid work seems as reasonable a guess as any
Oh dear, your bias is showing. were you a member of twats4themselves us4them? because it sounds like you were.

ilovesooty · 02/03/2023 16:18

hay5689 · 02/03/2023 13:58

I think the biggest problem now is what started off as a strike because teachers wanted better for the children now looks like it's all down to the money and that's on the unions not the teachers.

Same during covid, unions made things difficult at every turn when plenty of other workers were rolling up their sleeves and getting on with it.

Another problem is support for teachers waned when many parents struggled to home school and work from home and now they are probably taking time off because of the strikes and using annual leave because they can't afford to take it unpaid.

Unions don't always have their members best interests at heart, most of them are political party donors and have ulterior motives.

There are 11 unions affiliated to the Labour Party. None of the teaching unions are affiliated.

Botw1 · 02/03/2023 16:23

@FrippEnos

They weren't going by what the govt told them though?

They were actively campaigning against what the govt said.

Especially by the 2nd closures

Both are to blame

I don't think I have a bias. I have a personal experience, which wasn't great. Others were more fortunate. Some were much less fortunate

Even if the risk of going to work had been as high as the unions were trying to make out, I'd still have thought the unions were wrong to try to keep schools closed

Clavinova · 02/03/2023 18:05

noblegiraffe
Concerns that were then validated when numerous teachers received online abuse, yes?

The teacher featured in your BBC link has 61,000 followers on twitter (he posted 30 minutes ago). He has also set up an online dating agency for anyone who works in education - photos of 'happy couples' are also featured on twitter. His experience of online teaching has obviously not dented his enthusiasm for social media.

noblegiraffe · 02/03/2023 18:18

He was labelled a paedophile online and signed off with stress, Clav, I'm sure you're not seeking to diminish the impact of what happened to him to try to brush off valid concerns though, are you?