to think Gavin Williamsons views on teachers have been found out and he is trying to back pedal

[cakeorwine]

Leaked WhatsApp messages about schools during Covid and re-opening.

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/01/leaked-messages-boris-johnson-bemoaning-face-masks-u-turn

In October 2020, Williamson said publicly the following year’s exams would be postponed for a few weeks to make up teaching time. According to the leaked messages, Hancock then got in touch with his cabinet colleague to say “what a bunch of absolute arses the teaching unions are”.

Williamson replied: “I know they really really do just hate work.” Hancock then responded with a laughing emoji and a bullseye.

Dr Mary Bousted, joint general secretary of the National Education Union, said in response to the leak: “Why am I utterly unsurprised to now have it absolutely confirmed that Gavin Williamson was unfit to be secretary of state for education?”

According to Williamson, these comments were about "some unions" and he has the utmost respect for teachers who went above and beyond during the pandemic.

Yet it's the teachers who would be doing the work, not the Unions. So who was he saying who "really really just hate work"

The part of this, I find frustrating, is that whole swathes of the economy had to entirely change their way of working in response to Covid. It was not unique to the teaching profession. My patient facing team in the NHS moved online almost immediately in response to the pandemic. We delivered therapy, training to groups, supported suicidal clients. We did not sit around and moan that we had to entirely change our way of working. I taught myself how to use the virtual platform, how to run groups on it - having never used it before. It was not an excuse not to work.

Now clearly many teachers did the same, but my child’s teacher/school did not. They closed the doors and the first time I heard from my child’s teacher was 4 months later, when she phoned to see “how we were doing?” When I told her it was really difficult doing my own full time job in the NHS plus teaching my child (who has dyslexia). She responded “well you will know how to do it now, after four months” and laughed. When I asked why there was no online provision, she said “I do not feel comfortable doing that and I am not trained to do that”.

You can imagine how I felt! I know that there are many excellent teachers but unfortunately my child has not had them and our experience during lockdown could not have been worse. I was doing my job to the best of my ability and the job the teacher should have been doing, whilst they sat at home teaching their own children.

I am still angry about that, as are many of my friends and colleagues. I think previous posters are right, that the strikes, with whatever good motivations underlying them, have brought up very painful memories from the pandemic regarding how badly let down many children were. My child was really struggling at school because of their additional needs and has still not recovered educationally from the lack of teaching during this period.

So teachers wonder, why they are not better supported with these strikes? Well, I only speak for myself, but that is my reason.

Also, teachers are not living in penury! Such hyperbole does not serve their cause well.

Your point was as follows:

-teachers did have motivations in place, like tape, masks etc.

Then, several teachers pointed out that the tape was essentially a tick box exercise. (My computer, board, smart board, resource trolley and desk were not in my box, for example) and that masks weren’t allowed in many cases (for example my daughters class because my daughters friend is deaf and lip reads)

your next point was:

• they weren’t allowed to cross the tape

Then several teachers pointed out how ridiculous that was, or that they had no tape at all

your next point was:
-no, I didn’t mean all teachers, I meant one teacher!

so the story has changed from “teachers had mitigations in place” to one teacher having tape which nobody ever crossed.

So teachers wonder, why they are not better supported with these strikes?

Polling shows that there is good public support for teacher strikes compared to other professions on strike (bar NHS), and it is even higher when you only look at parents. So why are you claiming that teacher strikes aren’t supported?

Botw you went off on a rant about teachers supposedly triggered by something I said. But I didn’t say it. And when I pointed that out, you’re having a go at me like I was in the wrong.

And I don’t seem to be the only one saying you are misrepresenting what is being said to you. Perhaps it isn’t us that’s the problem here.

Hospitals and supermarkets had mitigations in place, my DD was on placement then and spent her days in plastic suits and full facemasks, this isn't possible for a teacher and 30 plus kids in a class room.

Food is essential, we die without it but again screens masks ventilation.

Schools aren't essential, kids can be taught on line, OU have been doing it for years, Uni students had to as well.

IF the GOvt really cared, they'd spend the money on ventilation and mitigation for the next pandemic... but they don't nor have they provided the means for children to catch up either.. thats how much of an essential they see our children.

A few vulnerable children, yes of course and teachers accepted that and taught these children.

ime the ones calling for more people to work in the pandemic were those safely wfh.

Like i said, your attitude is why we have teachers leaving the profession, doubtless you think nurses are lazy and money grabbing for striking too.

She’s a bloody nurse which makes the whole thing more laughable 😂😂😂

Also supermarkets were very strict in how many people they permitted - remember the huge queues?

The level of risk to a teacher was far higher than the level of risk to a supermarket worker without the blended learning model.

I seem to remember that the rust to teachers was higher than any other profession.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Then you remember wrong.

'Rates of death involving COVID-19 in men and women who worked as teaching and educational professionals, such as secondary school teachers, were not statistically significantly raised when compared with the rates seen in the population among those of the same age and sex.'

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/causesofdeath/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19relateddeathsbyoccupationenglandandwales/deathsregisteredbetween9marchand28december2020

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58416167

Except they left out all the relevant numbers deliberately.

skwawkbox.org/2021/01/25/new-ons-data-show-570-education-staff-have-died-of-coronavirus-but-media-claim-just-139-as-ons-top-line-data-hides-majority/

Yeah I can totally see how unbiased that is

I particularly loved the bit where they try to conflate death and infection rates.

And despite all that the article can't dispute that teachers werent at greater risk of infection

Oh and this bit

'put teachers and the rest of us in grave and avoidable danger.'

Gave me a laugh too.

From your own article - this is likely because they are generally healthier than other populations, and because those in the study were mostly under 42 - in other words, they were at very low risk of hospitalisation anyway.

And just because you don’t die doesn’t mean everything is okay - is that really where we are setting the bar? Things are fine as long as you don’t die?

amp.theguardian.com/education/2022/apr/17/almost-half-of-uk-teachers-had-covid-last-term-survey-suggests

50% of the population of UK teachers had covid in the spring term, and there was a massive spike in covid cases when school returned.

If schools hasn’t closed; covid rates would have spiked. It wasn’t about protecting teachers as such; it was about protecting the vulnerable people in society.

I personally worked harder than ever during covid; I was also homeschooling my own kid like every other non teaching parent.

Ans since you are a nurse schools remained opened to your kids so don’t give me that crap.

Holy shit, I had to check this wasn’t a zombie thread … thought I was back in 2020!

As it stood the actual risk was negligible.The damage that was done has far outweighed any perceived benefit (there wasn't 1)

becsuse covid didn’t go round classrooms and infect a significant portion of the people in there? and then those people infected never went out into the wider community before being infected, walking covid right into post offices, supermarkets, doctors and dentist waiting rooms, onto buses and into taxis and who knows where else? I mean, there was no reason to try and reduce community transmission, was there? We had sufficient beds, good quality drugs, a wealth of understanding and enough ventilators after all…….

Myself and my colleagues have been infected several times to date. I have a friend with a heart condition who has tested positive on 5, very separate, occasions. She has recently had to have heart surgery. I know two men who have just hit 50, top of their game, fabulous people to have in any classroom, who are taking medical retirement due to long covid. Heart breaking to think about how they were 2 years ago when you see them now. 5 school staff lost their lives within 8 miles of me. That’s significant over an 18 month period of time.

I know all of that is nothing compared with what happened in care homes and the NHS but those numbers are all people, with families, friends and colleagues who cared, and still care, about them. People who were apprehensive, and most definitely put at risk, but went to work anyway and who are now paying the price. I am 52 - I have only personally known one other person in my life time suffer with post-viral fatigue/ME. 2 in 18 months is therefore significant, whatever you want to think. I certainly have never known so many school staff die in such a short period of time.

I think people, conveniently, forget what it was like in the early days of covid and unfortunately, we will never be able to say exactly what the impact of lockdown was. Or what it would have been like without it.

Well, as schools were shut/partially open, then its pretty obv teachers wouldn't be at greater risk from CV as the average pop.

@GPTec1

Except teachers were never off? Isn't that how the argument goes? Schools were never closed and were full of kids throughout

In fact during the closures you'd think the risk would be higher as they were full of key workers children.

Any way the second study says it factored closures in.

@KievsOutTheOven

Sorry, I can't follow your argument?

You appear to be saying that of course teachers weren't at higher risk. They're young and healthy? But also that they were at most risk?

Im not aware of any stats that show that teachers are more at risk of other covid complications either but if it's there I'd like to read it.

And I've no idea what you mean by the last bit. I'm not giving you any crap.

My kids didn't go to school during either closure. During the first there was no provision except to vulnerable children and children where both parents were key workers

During the second there was slightly better provision but in reality they made it so difficult to access it wasn't worth it.

Plus on both occasions it was a baby sitting service, delivering the same online content as everyone else got.

You can rarely follow an argument so I’m not surprised.

I cannot believe I’m having to explain this to a nurse.

Teachers in general are a healthy, young population. This means that they are - like non teachers with the same demographic - vanishingly unlikely to be hospitalised by covid.

Teachers are more likely to catch covid than most other professions; because very few other professions (or jobs) had 7 lots of up to 33 people in a small, poorly ventilated room, with no masks and social distancing per day.

For the majority of teachers - the young, healthy ones - this meant that they caught covid, were unwell for a week or so and then returned to work.

For many teachers - predominantly those who were older, or had underlying conditions - this meant they caught covid, became seriously unwell, and ultimately some did die.

Had the population of teachers been a similar demographic to another population (ie older/less healthy) more of them would die. The only thing that protected teachers was their age and health. Mainly because teaching is a high stress job and it’s very difficult to do for an older person, or someone managing long term conditions.

I personally fell into the high risk category because I have a clotting disorder, I have an autoimmune condition, and I was pregnant with a very high risk pregnancy. And I was not allowed any more accommodations despite this being against the RCM guidance.

The key worker criteria was massively wide - almost everyone who was not furloughed was eligible - I’d be interested to find out what your partner does that meant they were working but your kids were ineligible?

What about the schools provision made it “difficult” for you to apply?

If course it was a babysitting service. What did you want? A situation where kids with key worker parents got preferential treatment over kids with, for example, unemployed parents? You don’t see why that would be a gross thing to do? And yet again, kindly don’t speak your “truth” about something that you have absolutely no experience of - neither you or your children were there. I was.

What actually happened was that we had around 10 kids at a time each. We were able to distance them, and most of them were mask compliant because their parents generally were working in at-risk situations so were probably more covid aware than the general public. We stayed with the same children for the full day - including interval and lunch, which was delivered to the classroom. If we needed a pee, a member of senior management supervised while we went.

When we were in the class, the kids were working on school provided chromebooks, attending live lessons from each teacher for a minimum of 20 minutes in each two hour block, and then were completing work set by them and communicating with their teacher via Google classroom. Teachers had to be available for the duration of their scheduled class.

When you were in school supporting your key worker children, you were also online supporting your own class. So I would be on video with one class while sitting with other kids in front of me who were on “live” with their own teacher.

So please, tell me your experience of being inside a school during lockdown.

Im not aware of any stats that show that teachers are more at risk of other covid complications either but if it's there I'd like to read it.

www.tes.com/magazine/news/general/education-joint-top-sector-affected-long-covid

@Botw1 Schools etc closed mid March and re opened in June to September, i thought you knew this, sorry for that assumption.

Teachers weren't exposed to anything like the same extent as they would have been had schools remained open as normal... hence infection/death rate lower.

No.

I just can't follow that logic.

The data was based on 20 to 64 year old for all working populations? Someone up thread even complained about it

They were comparing the risk of young health factory workers and young healthy teachers and young healthy factory workers were more at risk

Along with lots of other occupations but not teachers who had the same risk as the rest of the working population

It makes absolutely no sense to say teachers as a demographic weren't at risk but if they had been made up of a different demographic they would have been. They werent. So hypotheticals arent relevant to the actual risk

And, no I didn't want specialist treatment but I'm not sure what your big rant there has to do with the risk to teachers of covid. Your experience is not relevant to mine either so I'll speak my truth all I want

@noblegiraffe

Sorry, I can't read properly it due to some weird formatting thing but the bit I could see said highest self reported increase of. 0.7 %?

But it's pretty to equal to other professions like social work but a bit less than health care?

@GPTec1

Yes I was aware but as I said the studies were adjusted for closures

I don't know why some teachers want to be the most at risk but that's not what the data shows.

It's not my fault though lol.

No, you can see from the URL "joint top".

You can’t follow any logic so again, I’m not surprised you don’t follow the logic.

Factory workers are generally from a less affluent socio economic background than teachers, and it’s well documented that covid impacts those living in poverty more than those living in more affluent homes - due to factors such as overcrowding in homes. Those from less affluent backgrounds are also less likely to comply with covid rules such as lockdowns and masking - I’m sure if you Google it you will be able to find plenty of peer reviewed articles to back this up as I have done.

Ans it’s not about hypotheticals. Just because the average teacher is younger and healthier, doesn’t mean they all are. I personally know several people who should have been shielding due to meeting the criteria; but school and council risk assessments said that it’s fine as long as you don’t actively have a blood cancer or similar.

Your truth isn’t a truth because neither you nor your children were there because you found the application form too difficult to navigate.

Joint top being equal to? No?

Not more at risk than any other?

More than healthcare.

Weird how you claim everyone else has reading issues yet when provided with a source that proves you wrong there is suddenly formatting issues that only you experience though.