Page 7 | someone tell me what crime has been committed?

Weefreetiffany · 2023-03-02T07:15:01+00:00

Baffled by this story https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11810311/Woman-49-convicted-manslaughter-raising-hand-elderly-cyclist-collision.html on what grounds are the prosecuting the pedestrian? It seems an absolute stretch to think that her gesticulating and “radiant her hand” at a cyclist for driving towards her on a pavement is wilful manslaughter? I can see how it’s a tragic, very unfortunate accident but how did this make it to court? The atmosphere is this country is so toxic to middle aged women at the moment- what is going on?!

CecilyP · 02/03/2023 08:34

I think that the jury will have heard all the evidence, and been guided by the judge as to the law, and they will be in a much better position than we are based on a relatively short article. I read the BBC one so thanks for sharing.

The jury would have seen the same video as has been linked to here and heard the evidence of a gormless policeman who doesn’t know if it’s a shared path or not. The only other thing would have been the full police interview with the defendant. The path is actually really narrow. There were only 4 possibilities.

1 Cyclist stopping to let pedestrian pass
2 Pedestrian standing against railings to let cyclist pass.

As neither of these occurred, we have:

3 Cyclist ploughs into pedestrian
4 Cyclist veers into the road.

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 02/03/2023 08:34

SoupDragon · 02/03/2023 08:18

She really doesn't.

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She really does. It's not a sharp turn but you can see she moves over throughout her walk on the video to position herself where she does.

ChaseyLain · 02/03/2023 08:34

Yes I've seen the video. Typical cp movements and she waves, which is a perfectly natural defensive movement and will just look a bit different due to the CP.

Even if she didn't have a disability, is it a crime to defensively protect your body from an oncoming vehicle?!

Shouting also not a crime last time I checked and I'm not surprised she responded like that. Again a natural human response to danger.

Catspyjamas17 · 02/03/2023 08:34

Emotionalsupportviper · 02/03/2023 08:29

I'm pretty sure you can - but not if you have been actively involved.

English law (as far as I am aware*) doesn't require anyone to so much as call an ambulance or in any other way to help the victim of an accident/ assault/ whatever.

Most of us do help if we possibly can just because it's the right thing to do. Our instinct is to do what we can, but we aren't legally compelled to.

*If I'm wrong, I am happy to be corrected.

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I think you are right - though the car driver would certainly have a duty to stop after an accident regardless of whether they were at fault.

DrDinosaur · 02/03/2023 08:34

From the video, the pedestrian is just walking down the road, slightly flapping her arm, and shouting. She didn’t leap in front of the cyclist at the last minute, or do anything negligent or predictably dangerous.

The accident happened because the cyclist failed to react appropriately to a hazard in front of her. Tragic, but entirely the cyclists fault.

Her actions afterwards are irrelevant. There is no obligation on pedestrians to stay at the scene of an accident, or be a Good Samaritan, and there were obviously other people there. She probably felt she wouldn’t be able to be of help.

dawngreen · 02/03/2023 08:35

Its easy to blame the disabled, and they know she won't have money to fight in court.

ivykaty44 · 02/03/2023 08:35

fioreun · 02/03/2023 08:30

Here's the relevant part of the Highway Code. Pedestrians have priority over cyclists on both pavements and shared routes. Signage is not the issue here, but lack of knowledge about the law.

www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/introduction#:~:text=Rule%20H2%20%2D%20Rule%20for%20drivers,from%20which%20you%20are%20turning.

Seems the law disagrees and the pedestrian was found guilty of manslaughter

PsychoHotSauce · 02/03/2023 08:35

If the police can't determine if the cyclist should or shouldn't have been on the pavement I'm not sure how either the pedestrian or the cyclist could've either

if the pedestrian panicked and lashed out because she's partially sighted and feared she would get hurt, I can understand why. What I can't understand is how she left the scene and went shopping, seemingly feeling no guilt whatsoever.

soleilblue · 02/03/2023 08:35

Shes shouting at her aggressively to tell her to get off the pavement. Right by a busy road. What did she think would happen? She's intimidating her into the road.

CeeceeBloomingdale · 02/03/2023 08:36

If this was a shared path (which the cyclist presumably believed it was) then the cyclist should have been aware she was approaching the pedestrian and that there wasn't enough room to pass an therefore slowed down and dismounted while passing. The pedestrian would have right of way even if shared and there clearly isn't enough room for them to pass without the cyclist dismounting or stopping. Not all shared pedestrian/cycle paths are wide, this one is local to me and cyclists need to stop if they see a pedestrian due to it's narrow width.

someone tell me what crime has been committed?

ChaseyLain · 02/03/2023 08:37

DrDinosaur · 02/03/2023 08:34

From the video, the pedestrian is just walking down the road, slightly flapping her arm, and shouting. She didn’t leap in front of the cyclist at the last minute, or do anything negligent or predictably dangerous.

The accident happened because the cyclist failed to react appropriately to a hazard in front of her. Tragic, but entirely the cyclists fault.

Her actions afterwards are irrelevant. There is no obligation on pedestrians to stay at the scene of an accident, or be a Good Samaritan, and there were obviously other people there. She probably felt she wouldn’t be able to be of help.

This is literally what the video shows. What on earth else can be read into it?

MichaelFabricantWig · 02/03/2023 08:37

ChaseyLain · 02/03/2023 07:56

Disabled people should be able to walk down a footpath without fear of cyclists mowing them down.

Exactly. Appalling disability discrimination rather than misogyny in this case.
The cyclist was illegally cycling on pavement, nearly ploughed into a pedestrian and expected everyone to move for her rather than slowing down or stopping. Yes, most people would move out the way, but someone with CP can't do that that quickly. I have very limited sympathy, as the cyclist caused this entirely by her actions.

I hope it will be appealed. Oh and for those saying how callous her behaviour afterwards was and that's the reason for the sentence that would only apply in an actual crime, which this wasn't. Walking on the pavement and gesturing is not a crime.
And some cp sufferers have learning disabilities as it is a condition that results from a brain injury so I wouldn't be judging the woman by neurotypical standards anyway.

I agree, very tragic case but this seems a ridiculous verdict. As for leaving the scene - no it isn’t acceptable but it’s not a crime either is it. It’s not comparable to a car driver leaving the scene of an accident where they are legally obliged to stop.

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 02/03/2023 08:37

ChaseyLain · 02/03/2023 08:34

Yes I've seen the video. Typical cp movements and she waves, which is a perfectly natural defensive movement and will just look a bit different due to the CP.

Even if she didn't have a disability, is it a crime to defensively protect your body from an oncoming vehicle?!

Shouting also not a crime last time I checked and I'm not surprised she responded like that. Again a natural human response to danger.

Sorry but in this case I'm far more likely to believe that the courts and police know more about the case than you do.

They clearly see what she did as a crime. Imo I agree. The cyclist thought it was a shared path so (in their eyes) did nothing wrong. They weren't acting entitled. Unlike the pedestrian who took the law into her own hands and killed someone

ivykaty44 · 02/03/2023 08:38

Catspyjamas17 · 02/03/2023 08:34

I think you are right - though the car driver would certainly have a duty to stop after an accident regardless of whether they were at fault.

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You have a duty to stop and provide information, if the victim is unconscious then it’s still your duty to sort that out

MrsRandom123 · 02/03/2023 08:38

The cyclist has no helmet on…is it known whether she is a “regular” cyclist and therefore confidant on a bike or did she fancy a wee cycle and was unsteady on it. The video doesn’t show the pedestrian touching her and if she was competent on the bike should have been able to avoid both her and “falling” on to the road.

it’s the car driver i feel sorry for. I don’t think the pedestrian has did anything wrong & to be honest if i saw a cyclist coming at me on the pavement (potentially wobbling about) i’d stop & move to the side but would likely make a comment too about how she shouldn’t be on the pavement (especially if i had my kids with me!) just because the cyclist died doesn’t mean she wasn’t in any way to blame

ChaseyLain · 02/03/2023 08:39

Well, looking at the actual evidence it is not a crime.

Fraaahnces · 02/03/2023 08:39

@ClimbingRoseBush ummmm no. I said “Who knows how HER CP affects HER?” I made a very clear statement about that individual being affected by CP and the fact that it HAS been brought up, but we don’t know how she is affected is not at all patronizing to people with CP. I am very much aware that CP affects people in a very wide variety of ways and there is a vast difference very mild and very severe cases, and the spectrum of symptoms each individual may have is also very different.

HarlanPepper · 02/03/2023 08:39

@CeeceeBloomingdale Why have you posted that picture? That's not where it happened. You can easily find video footage and you can see in the footage that the pavement was wide enough for them to pass each other. But the pedestrian walks towards the cyclist and makes 'light contact' (as she herself has admitted) which pushes her into the road.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 02/03/2023 08:39

ChaseyLain · 02/03/2023 07:56

Disabled people should be able to walk down a footpath without fear of cyclists mowing them down.

Exactly. Appalling disability discrimination rather than misogyny in this case.
The cyclist was illegally cycling on pavement, nearly ploughed into a pedestrian and expected everyone to move for her rather than slowing down or stopping. Yes, most people would move out the way, but someone with CP can't do that that quickly. I have very limited sympathy, as the cyclist caused this entirely by her actions.

I hope it will be appealed. Oh and for those saying how callous her behaviour afterwards was and that's the reason for the sentence that would only apply in an actual crime, which this wasn't. Walking on the pavement and gesturing is not a crime.
And some cp sufferers have learning disabilities as it is a condition that results from a brain injury so I wouldn't be judging the woman by neurotypical standards anyway.

It isn't known if the cyclist was wrong to be on the pavement. What is fact is the pedestrian was behaving in an aggressive manner and moving towards the cyclist in a manner likely to cause fear and distress.

HarlanPepper · 02/03/2023 08:40

ChaseyLain · 02/03/2023 08:39

Well, looking at the actual evidence it is not a crime.

The jury did look at the actual evidence over several weeks and found that it was a crime, so.

CrotchetyCrocheting · 02/03/2023 08:40

ivykaty44 · 02/03/2023 08:25

@Fancylike

how fast is hurtling?

was it pavement or shared path?

Fast enough that she couldn't just stop to let the pedestrian go past because pavement or shared path the pedestrian had right of way?

BeetleyCarapace · 02/03/2023 08:40

@ChaseyLain @CecilyP

There will be more of that video that isn’t on the news sites. It will show the accident itself (which obviously they’re not going to broadcast because it would be ghoulish) and there may also be other CCTV/dashcam footage.

soleilblue · 02/03/2023 08:41

ChaseyLain · 02/03/2023 08:39

Well, looking at the actual evidence it is not a crime.

I imagine the CPS were satisfied there was a potential crime to be tried.

maddening · 02/03/2023 08:41

Bard6817 · 02/03/2023 08:02

So you believe a 10 year olds should be cycling on major roads….. Because that’s what the same law says.

Thankfully Police are more understanding and accept that some roads are just too damn dangerous and that if cyclists are not doing so poorly - then it’s not a fine.

But let’s all stick to the law - which is an ass in some cases - and be damned how kids die.

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If a 10 year old cycles in the pavement then when they come up to a pedestrian they should slow down or stop so they can pass safely. They are there by exception with no right of way, therefore if they cycle there then they stop or slow down for a pedestrian who does have right of way.

If this cyclist had done that then she would be alive and the poor driver would not have suffered the trauma from the crash. The cyclist killed themselves in this case.

CecilyP · 02/03/2023 08:41

The fact that the police can't even say if it was a shared pavement so I'm amazed so many people on here can.

We can see how narrow the pavement is so on that basis it seems unlikely. I would imagine the police didn’t want to commit either way as he was under oath and didn’t know for sure.