Page 36 | someone tell me what crime has been committed?

Weefreetiffany · 2023-03-02T07:15:01+00:00

Baffled by this story https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11810311/Woman-49-convicted-manslaughter-raising-hand-elderly-cyclist-collision.html on what grounds are the prosecuting the pedestrian? It seems an absolute stretch to think that her gesticulating and “radiant her hand” at a cyclist for driving towards her on a pavement is wilful manslaughter? I can see how it’s a tragic, very unfortunate accident but how did this make it to court? The atmosphere is this country is so toxic to middle aged women at the moment- what is going on?!

CornishGem1975 · 02/03/2023 22:45

MrsSkylerWhite · 02/03/2023 22:23

I wouldn’t have any problem at all with a 77 year old cyclist using the pavement in a busy area, I would have a massive problem with someone shouting and swearing at her and then pissing off after the accident - that she caused.

None of this should be about age.

Sunsetred · 02/03/2023 22:48

I wonder why the cyclist didn't stop when she saw the pedestrian approaching. The footpath was fairly narrow and I would have expected a cyclist to stop to let the pedestrian pass safely. I stop with my buggy to let people pass on narrow footpaths.

MsJD · 02/03/2023 22:54

3 years? Not enough, really. Let's hope the Solicitor General makes an appeal against an unduly lenient sentence. I might write to my MP.

whynotwhatknot · 02/03/2023 22:54

3 years for gesticulating at someone
-work that out
in the same week someone hit a pedestrian and just got a driving ban

whynotwhatknot · 02/03/2023 22:55

she shouldnt have walkoed away of course

Mangledrake · 02/03/2023 22:55

Sunsetred · 02/03/2023 22:48

I wonder why the cyclist didn't stop when she saw the pedestrian approaching. The footpath was fairly narrow and I would have expected a cyclist to stop to let the pedestrian pass safely. I stop with my buggy to let people pass on narrow footpaths.

Because the pedestrian was shouting and swearing at her and there was room for her to pass by without any further confrontation.

lauraloulou1 · 02/03/2023 23:00

There are many areas where cycle lanes suddenly end and its unclear whether pavements are shared or not. As a cyclist who carries my daughter on my bike I err on the side of caution and am regularly screamed at by pedestrians who don't seem to realise there are shared spaces and routes. This woman callously decided she needed the whole pathway, you can see on the video how scary she was screaming her head off which is a really frightening experience for a cyclist already trying to concentrate on the many things ahead of them, and then left this elderly cyclist to die on the road. If anything she should have got longer. So yes UABU.

Mangledrake · 02/03/2023 23:00

BrigitteBond · 02/03/2023 22:29

Yes, I wouldn't take much convincing that she was ND, given her behaviour.

It's also worth noting (again) that this was October 2020, when the whole country (particularly the ND portion) was crossing over roads to avoid passing within 2m of each other and shouting at joggers and cyclists that got to close. Every trip to the supermarket was a terrifying ordeal for some people.

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If she has claimed to be ND, or any medical expert has claimed she is ND, I can see that might be a mitigating factor, e.g. around leaving the scene.

But I don't think we should work on the fact that the general public 'could believe' she was ND. You can't always tell, not by a long shot. And plenty of people are aggressive or callous without being ND - these aren't ND characteristics.

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 02/03/2023 23:01

I wonder why the cyclist didn't stop when she saw the pedestrian approaching. The footpath was fairly narrow and I would have expected a cyclist to stop to let the pedestrian pass safely. I stop with my buggy to let people pass on narrow footpaths.

Presumably because there was sufficient space to pass (or would have been without the arm waving/pushing), and generally people don't stop when someone is aggressively shouting at them. They get the hell away from the person swearing at them incase the person continues or attacks them.

ILiveAt64ZooLane · 02/03/2023 23:08

SpookyBlackCat · 02/03/2023 22:21

It's interesting that the judge determined that she had no mental disorder because it's really hard to believe that this woman is NT.

It's utterly devastating for the poor victim's family and the woman who hit her, but I still don't understand how sending an obviously vulnerable woman to prison for three years is the answer here. She will lose her home, her belongings, everything. All because she swore and waved her hand at a cyclist on the pavement.

But she didn’t just swear and wave her hand at a cyclist. Regardless of whether it’s a shared pathway or not the pedestrian and her behaviour lead to the death of a cyclist. She could have shouted stop, slow down, wait, but she shouted abuse. She could have stood still, moved over if scared but she didn’t. The cyclist falls into the road, getting hit by a car and our pedestrian goes to sainsburys. Until today has shown no remorse and lied in interview. The police would have complied a complete forensic collision investigation including medical reports regarding the pedestrian but that is apparently irrelevant.

daffodilday · 02/03/2023 23:17

The cyclist caused this interaction , and ultimately her tragic death , by cycling dangerously (on a pavement)

OneTC · 02/03/2023 23:19

daffodilday · 02/03/2023 23:17

The cyclist caused this interaction , and ultimately her tragic death , by cycling dangerously (on a pavement)

That happens thousands of times every day without incident though.

Forcing someone off the pavement into the road road and them dying is the exceptional circumstance here.

OneTC · 02/03/2023 23:21

The "oh won't somebody think of the poor survivor of this encounter" mentality of some on this thread is mind boggling

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 02/03/2023 23:21

daffodilday · 02/03/2023 23:17

The cyclist caused this interaction , and ultimately her tragic death , by cycling dangerously (on a pavement)

Victim blaming bollocks. Celia Ward's death was caused by the aggressive woman who pushed her into traffic.

Mangledrake · 02/03/2023 23:21

daffodilday · 02/03/2023 23:17

The cyclist caused this interaction , and ultimately her tragic death , by cycling dangerously (on a pavement)

No, it's shared space, not just a pavement.

Even if it wasn't ...

the cyclist didn't cause her own death. Take the other woman out of the equation (and add in anyone behaving reasonably) and she doesn't die.

If I sit on the edge of a cliff and someone pushes me over, I've behaved unwisely, but they've killed me.

JustAnotherManicNameChange · 02/03/2023 23:24

Sunsetred · 02/03/2023 22:48

I wonder why the cyclist didn't stop when she saw the pedestrian approaching. The footpath was fairly narrow and I would have expected a cyclist to stop to let the pedestrian pass safely. I stop with my buggy to let people pass on narrow footpaths.

2.4m is not fairly narrow. There was plenty of room for both of them.

Not many people would stop when someone is shouting and swearing at them and waving their hands about. For most people their instinct would be to get past as quickly as possible .

LindorDoubleChoc · 02/03/2023 23:28

If it wasn't abundantly clear, with signs and road markings and (God knows what) but some way for partially sighted people to understand unequivocally that they as a pedestrian are sharing a space with a cyclist, then I don't agree a crime has been committed and certainly not a crime that deserves 3 years in prison.

I have seen lots of pedestrians come close to being run over on shared paths in London (which, incidentally, are painted in different colours and have division lines marked down the middle). People aren't used to them, there has been no public awareness infirmation about the fact they even exist.

AllDayBreakfast92 · 02/03/2023 23:36

soleilblue · 02/03/2023 16:46

Victim blaming right there

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Tbf, people are sometimes a primary cause of their own demise (not specifically talking about this case).

A guy who lived near me blew himself up while trying to make shatter (super concentrated cannabis extract) which involves forcing pressurised butane through the weed to draw out the THC crystals.

It's a highly dangerous process but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest he was stupid to try that in a non-laboratory environment.

daffodilday · 02/03/2023 23:36

Mangledrake · 02/03/2023 23:21

No, it's shared space, not just a pavement.

Even if it wasn't ...

the cyclist didn't cause her own death. Take the other woman out of the equation (and add in anyone behaving reasonably) and she doesn't die.

If I sit on the edge of a cliff and someone pushes me over, I've behaved unwisely, but they've killed me.

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If you take the pavement /shared pavement out of the equation , she also doesn’t die. A car did not hit her because she was cycling on the road . A car hit her because she was not cycling on the road and then fell into the road from the pavement. It’s all very sad but raises important questions about cyclists, drivers and pedestrians having enough space to be safe.

londonmummy1966 · 02/03/2023 23:36

I looked at the CCTV and thought that the pavement was way too narrow to be a shared space - the ones near me are at least twice as wide with a white stripe down the middle to show who should be where. Given it was so narrow I can't help thinking that the cyclist should have been riding so slowly when spotting a pedestrian on the pavement that they could have simply braked to a stop. The fact that they had to swerve into the road to avoid the pedestrian rather than just stop suggests that they were going too fast and were probably also negligent themselves.

Mangledrake · 02/03/2023 23:44

daffodilday · 02/03/2023 23:36

If you take the pavement /shared pavement out of the equation , she also doesn’t die. A car did not hit her because she was cycling on the road . A car hit her because she was not cycling on the road and then fell into the road from the pavement. It’s all very sad but raises important questions about cyclists, drivers and pedestrians having enough space to be safe.

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She does die, wherever she's cycling, pavement, cycle path, or roadside, if someone jumps out at her swearing and brushes / pushes her into traffic.

That's what the manslaughter charge means. Without that pedestrian's actions, the cyclist would still be alive. Where she was cycling didn't cause her death that day, any more than the driver who ran her over caused her death that day. The woman who attacked her caused her death that day.

Mangledrake · 02/03/2023 23:48

londonmummy1966 · 02/03/2023 23:36

I looked at the CCTV and thought that the pavement was way too narrow to be a shared space - the ones near me are at least twice as wide with a white stripe down the middle to show who should be where. Given it was so narrow I can't help thinking that the cyclist should have been riding so slowly when spotting a pedestrian on the pavement that they could have simply braked to a stop. The fact that they had to swerve into the road to avoid the pedestrian rather than just stop suggests that they were going too fast and were probably also negligent themselves.

The cyclist didn't swerve into the road. She fell onto the road. She was passing clear of the pedestrian when the pedestrian turned toward her and lunged at her, apparently pushing her.

She had no reason to stop. She was passing the pedestrian safely at a gentle speed.

Blossomtoes · 02/03/2023 23:48

londonmummy1966 · 02/03/2023 23:36

I looked at the CCTV and thought that the pavement was way too narrow to be a shared space - the ones near me are at least twice as wide with a white stripe down the middle to show who should be where. Given it was so narrow I can't help thinking that the cyclist should have been riding so slowly when spotting a pedestrian on the pavement that they could have simply braked to a stop. The fact that they had to swerve into the road to avoid the pedestrian rather than just stop suggests that they were going too fast and were probably also negligent themselves.

It’s not narrow. It’s 2.4 metres wide.

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 02/03/2023 23:53

londonmummy1966 · 02/03/2023 23:36

I looked at the CCTV and thought that the pavement was way too narrow to be a shared space - the ones near me are at least twice as wide with a white stripe down the middle to show who should be where. Given it was so narrow I can't help thinking that the cyclist should have been riding so slowly when spotting a pedestrian on the pavement that they could have simply braked to a stop. The fact that they had to swerve into the road to avoid the pedestrian rather than just stop suggests that they were going too fast and were probably also negligent themselves.

The CCTV is a bit deceptive because of the angle. The path is 2.4m wide and if you look at it head on there's plenty of space.

If you watch the footage again, slowly (scrub through it), the cyclist is basically 3/4 past the pedestrian before she leaves the pavement - pedestrian is in line with the back wheel when the front wheel starts to turn (so no need to brake because there is room and she doesn't swerve to miss her because she's already mostly past her). She swerves/falls because she was pushed, or at absolute minimum thought she was about to be (although push is more likely given the footage and the admission contact was made - either way it's assault and/or battery). You can also see from the footage Celia Wars isn't cycling fast by any means as she passes.

Giggorata · 03/03/2023 00:25

It is tragic that this cyclist has died. I am so sorry for her and her family.

However, I don't think the pedestrian should have been convicted of manslaughter.

She was on a pavement, where it wasn't reasonably foreseeable that she would encounter a cyclist.
The cyclist should not have been on the pavement. This could possibly be considered as contributory negligence.
To say that the pedestrian was territorial about the pavement was inappropriate, as it is supported by law that cyclists shouldn't ride on pavements.

The pedestrian was partially sighted, which meant she couldn't see the cyclist as well or as early as other sighted people might. Therefore her reaction was more shocked, as she had less time to prepare her response.
She also has cerebral palsy, so it is possible that her gesture was less controlled and she couldn't reasonably foresee that it would lead to the cyclist going into the traffic.

Swearing at the cyclist is immaterial and should not be taken into account for conviction. I hope she appeals the conviction.

All in all, very sad.