Page 13 | someone tell me what crime has been committed?

Weefreetiffany · 2023-03-02T07:15:01+00:00

Baffled by this story https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11810311/Woman-49-convicted-manslaughter-raising-hand-elderly-cyclist-collision.html on what grounds are the prosecuting the pedestrian? It seems an absolute stretch to think that her gesticulating and “radiant her hand” at a cyclist for driving towards her on a pavement is wilful manslaughter? I can see how it’s a tragic, very unfortunate accident but how did this make it to court? The atmosphere is this country is so toxic to middle aged women at the moment- what is going on?!

Mummyoflittledragon · 02/03/2023 09:50

soleilblue · 02/03/2023 08:01

I've watched the video. The cyclist had no where to go. The pedestrian wasn't going to stop or move.

Why should the pedestrian have moved? She had priority.

I’m physically disabled. I cannot walk far. A bike, scooter or even a jogger coming towards me on a narrow stretch is frightening. I certainly shouldn’t be expected to stop or move out of the way for able bodied people, especially ones on a bike, regardless of their age and mine.

The cyclist made a very poor decision and appears as though she didn’t attempt to give priority to the disabled woman. It’s a tragic event and I wouldn’t have reacted in an aggressive as I’d have been afraid of being pushed over. But fear does strange things and disabled people get marginalised constantly so maybe this isn’t the first time the woman encountered a cyclist on a narrow pavement. I’m surprised the pedestrian is being held responsible.

CornishGem1975 · 02/03/2023 09:50

ILiveAt64ZooLane · 02/03/2023 09:46

I think the detective has summed things up perfectly.

After the verdict, Det Sgt Dollard said: "This is a difficult and tragic case.
"Everyone will have their own views on cyclists, pavements and cycleways but what is clear is Auriol Grey's response to the presence of Celia on a pedal cycle was totally disproportionate and ultimately found to be unlawful, resulting in Celia's untimely and needless death.

I think it's a good summing up but I disagree with him. The response was not disproportionate from the CCTV. She hardly shoved her off her bike into the road. What is disproportionate is charges for manslaughter.

Xol · 02/03/2023 09:50

Hawkins003 · 02/03/2023 09:45

It doesn't look that way, but right before the "push" the wheel is at the side of the lady's legs, which seems it was tight but would of passed safely

Show quote history

At the very least surely you would slow right down seeing someone walking towards you in the middle of the pavement? We have a shared use pavement near where I live, when I cycle down it I'm always incredibly cautious when I approach pedestrians - but I'll admit to not being the most experienced cyclist so maybe I'm more cautious than others might be.

I8toys · 02/03/2023 09:51

Its so bizarre. How can they not know if the pavement is shared or not?

Dreadful accident but the cyclist should have been on the road. If she was going slowly and was aware of her surroundings she could have stopped and got off the bike at the first gesticulation. The pedestrian didn't purposefully push her into oncoming traffic.

Mayonaiseislife · 02/03/2023 09:51

thedancingbear · 02/03/2023 09:49

Not disputing the bit about her wandering off to do her shopping is true.

The DM article's headline is:

[a] woman pedestrian, 49, swore at 77-year-old cycling on the pavement who then veered into road and was struck and killed by a car - as she faces jail for manslaughter

But she admitted in court that she gave her a light shove, into the road. And you can just about make this out in the video true.

So the DM has taken a story about someone pushing a cyclist into a road, killing her, and run with a headline suggesting all she did was swear at a pavement cyclist.

This is how they work.

Show quote history

Aww sorry @thedancingbear I misread your initial post. For what its worth i am 100% on the cyclists side.

maddening · 02/03/2023 09:52

Hawkins003 · 02/03/2023 09:27

@maddening
It looks like the cyclist would of rode past normally but off angle the pedestrian looks like she "pushed " the cyclist causing the serve into the roas

Why does the bbc not report it as pushing? You cannot see that she pushed her in the video, if she pushed her that is different, it could also be that the cyclist clipped her and caused herself to fall, we can’t see a push and there are no reports of a push.

If the cyclist had stopped to pass on foot or give way then this would not have happened.

Hawkins003 · 02/03/2023 09:52

ChaseyLain · 02/03/2023 08:53

And you don't ride into pedestrians without stopping.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Show quote history

The cyclist didn't ride into her, on the video it shows the bike wheel clearly able to pass the pedestrian, it was due to the pedestrian that the cyclist got pushed into the road.

Xol · 02/03/2023 09:53

But she admitted in court that she gave her a light shove, into the road. And you can just about make this out in the video true.

Did she? Is that in a more detailed report? It doesn't show in the video.

If so, it makes the verdict totally explicable. If you shove a cyclist in the direction of the road, of course you are liable for the consequences.

Mayonaiseislife · 02/03/2023 09:54

I8toys · 02/03/2023 09:51

Its so bizarre. How can they not know if the pavement is shared or not?

Dreadful accident but the cyclist should have been on the road. If she was going slowly and was aware of her surroundings she could have stopped and got off the bike at the first gesticulation. The pedestrian didn't purposefully push her into oncoming traffic.

As the saying goes 2 wrongs dont make a right.

And whats happened here is whilst the cyclist shouldn't have been on the pavement that doesn't warrant her being pushed.

The push made her swerve onto traffic and die, hardly a fitting punishment.

The pedestrian whilst im sure didnt expect that outcome she then walked away after witnessing her being hit and dying......to do her shopping.

Hawkins003 · 02/03/2023 09:54

maddening · 02/03/2023 09:52

Why does the bbc not report it as pushing? You cannot see that she pushed her in the video, if she pushed her that is different, it could also be that the cyclist clipped her and caused herself to fall, we can’t see a push and there are no reports of a push.

If the cyclist had stopped to pass on foot or give way then this would not have happened.

Show quote history

Because it is only presumed that the push happened as it was not in the cctv, based on the body language of the pedestrian, it can be presumed that's what caused it.

I8toys · 02/03/2023 09:56

So are they saying she pushed her into the road? I didn't get that from the video or newspaper report.

If she pushed the cyclist into the road then she deserves to be prosecuted.

ILiveAt64ZooLane · 02/03/2023 09:56

Xol · 02/03/2023 09:45

But the BBC report says that the case made was that the pedestrian was wholly, not partly, responsible for this, i.e. that the cyclist had no choice but to swerve into the road. I do question that, because it does seem to me that a cyclist riding at a reasonable speed for a pavement like that would have had time to stop as she saw the pedestrian approaching, because she could see that the space to get past is really quite narrow.

Show quote history

Like I said, If the cyclist had stopped beforehand or the pedestrian had moved over slightly it wouldn’t have happened but that’s not what we’re dealing with. if a car hadn’t been coming along, again the cyclist would probably still be alive which is why I said in part because the car’s impact is what presumably killed her. A series of unfortunate events happened and if any one of them was slightly different we wouldn’t be discussing it but unfortunately we are, tragically someone lost their life and the pedestrian has to live with the consequences of her actions and the chain of events that followed.

Nogreens · 02/03/2023 09:56

I am not a cyclist and I read the Daily Mail, it's just another news source you still have to engage the brain. To me, from watching the video, it's clear the pedestrian is at fault. There was plenty of space for her to move to the side whether or not the cyclist should have been there. Also I'm afraid it does look like she pushed the cyclist.
I have no love for cyclist but it is interesting to see how biased people are against them.

spelunky · 02/03/2023 09:58

Weefreetiffany · 02/03/2023 07:25

I think it’s a stretch to say she tried to hit her. There are so many posts about aggressive cyclists riding on pavements they should be on. If you’re that unsteady on a bike that you would wobble and fall off it by someone gesticulating at you, should you even be cycling? The 49 year old was rude but not unreasonable and certainly not criminal.

Of course a cyclist is going to wobble if someone suddenly starts gesticulating/ waving towards them. It's a massive distraction out of nowhere.

Car accidents are caused by much less. It doesn't mean they are not capable drivers, it means something unexpected happened and caused them to be startled and lose control. It happens all the time.

I'm sure the pedestrian wasn't 'trying' to hit her, but that's not what manslaughter is. Manslaughter can be accidental/ unintentional.

The face is she would not have died if the pedestrian hadn't been waving her arms around like that. It was irresponsible behaviour and it is manslaughter.

ClimbingRoseBush · 02/03/2023 09:59

Xol · 02/03/2023 09:53

But she admitted in court that she gave her a light shove, into the road. And you can just about make this out in the video true.

Did she? Is that in a more detailed report? It doesn't show in the video.

If so, it makes the verdict totally explicable. If you shove a cyclist in the direction of the road, of course you are liable for the consequences.

Yes, it’s in the reports that aren’t the DM trying to blame the cyclist. She admits she deliberately held out her arm and made contact. She also says that she has no mental impairments from her CP.

Xol · 02/03/2023 10:01

I am a cyclist, my bias is totally in favour of cycling, but it does puzzle me that the case seems to have been put on the basis that there was nothing the cyclist could have done to avoid this; however, that does of course depend on whether there was evidence that the pedestrian actually made physical contact or not. If she did, then I agree that the pedestrian is totally at fault, but it's odd that the police spokesman doesn't mention that and only talks in terms of her gesticulating.

KevinsChilli · 02/03/2023 10:02

Nogreens · 02/03/2023 09:56

I am not a cyclist and I read the Daily Mail, it's just another news source you still have to engage the brain. To me, from watching the video, it's clear the pedestrian is at fault. There was plenty of space for her to move to the side whether or not the cyclist should have been there. Also I'm afraid it does look like she pushed the cyclist.
I have no love for cyclist but it is interesting to see how biased people are against them.

Why do you 'have no love' for cyclists?

burnoutbabe · 02/03/2023 10:04

We DO NOT have any Good Samaritan laws here in the uk so you do not have to help people in the case of an accident (bar other rules on drivers and cases of parents should help their children)

So walking off should have no effect on any prosecution (unless they were the sole person around and only person who could have called an ambulance)

soleilblue · 02/03/2023 10:04

QuietlyConfident · 02/03/2023 09:11

Whether the cyclist should have been on the pavement is neither here nor there which is probably why the police didn't pay much attention to the issue. If a non-violent gate crasher comes to my party and I confront them aggressively, resulting in them accidentally falling down my stairs, then the fact that they shouldn't have been in my house in the first place is no defence to a manslaughter charge.

I agree

spelunky · 02/03/2023 10:04

Xol · 02/03/2023 10:01

I am a cyclist, my bias is totally in favour of cycling, but it does puzzle me that the case seems to have been put on the basis that there was nothing the cyclist could have done to avoid this; however, that does of course depend on whether there was evidence that the pedestrian actually made physical contact or not. If she did, then I agree that the pedestrian is totally at fault, but it's odd that the police spokesman doesn't mention that and only talks in terms of her gesticulating.

She's at fault whether or not she made physical contact. You don't deliberatlely stick your arm out and get in the way of someone cycling on a busy road.

Having watched the video, it's crystal clear that the pedestrian is at fault. I really don't know how this could be interpreted any other way. If she actually pushed her then that's even worse, but either way, it's an absolutely stupid thing to do and it is manslaughter.

I highly doubt that the pedestrian intended for the cyclist to die, and I expect she is feeling awful about it now. But she should not have done this, it was stupid and dangerous, and she should face the consequences for it.

camelCase · 02/03/2023 10:05

I've travelled along that road many times so am very familiar with it, it's 30mph but you do get idiots speeding along frequently so I can see why the cyclist didn't feel safe to ride on the road. I can't imagine the cyclist was hurtling along towards her because of the layout, there is a GP surgery with a car park and it's exit is about a meter after where this cyclist went into the road. I can't see how she would have been able to get up much speed after safely going across the road which is the exit to the car park. The layout is awkward with bushes/trees so cars have to pull right up to the end to see if it's safe to exit onto the main road, I imagine she would have slowed down/stopped and got off to check there wasn't a car coming (or perhaps she'd come from that direction after having an appointment or going to the pharmacy)

That might explain why it seems the pedestrian didn't shout at her until a few seconds before they would have collided (although this may also be down to her partial sightedness). It's difficult to tell but from the video just after she was gesturing with her hand she did seem to just slightly touch her(not intentionally) or almost did which coupled with the swearing was enough to startle the cyclist into falling into the road and probably why there is a manslaughter charge.

Xol · 02/03/2023 10:06

Yes, it’s in the reports that aren’t the DM trying to blame the cyclist. She admits she deliberately held out her arm and made contact. She also says that she has no mental impairments from her CP.

Which ones? I couldn't see it in the BBC or LBC reports.

pattihews · 02/03/2023 10:06

TinklyLaughTime · 02/03/2023 07:26

There's cctv online of it.

The pedestrian lashed out at her and shouted 'get off the fucking pavement!' which was deemed to be the reason the cyclist fell off her bike into the road and got hit.

No, the pedestrian didn't lash out at her. The pedestrian raised her arm, probably in an attempt to ensure that the cyclist didn't come too close to her.
What are you supposed to say when you're walking along a relatively narrow pavement and a cyclist comes at you? 'Kindly desist from hitting me, kind sir?'

The person I feel the most sympathy for is the driver, who now has to live with the knowledge that they killed someone but couldn't have stopped.

It was one of those unfortunate events. A minute earlier or later and everything would have been fine. Shocked that anyone can be held to blame for this.

soleilblue · 02/03/2023 10:08

Mummyoflittledragon · 02/03/2023 09:50

Why should the pedestrian have moved? She had priority.

I’m physically disabled. I cannot walk far. A bike, scooter or even a jogger coming towards me on a narrow stretch is frightening. I certainly shouldn’t be expected to stop or move out of the way for able bodied people, especially ones on a bike, regardless of their age and mine.

The cyclist made a very poor decision and appears as though she didn’t attempt to give priority to the disabled woman. It’s a tragic event and I wouldn’t have reacted in an aggressive as I’d have been afraid of being pushed over. But fear does strange things and disabled people get marginalised constantly so maybe this isn’t the first time the woman encountered a cyclist on a narrow pavement. I’m surprised the pedestrian is being held responsible.

Show quote history

She shouted at her to get off the pavement. So hostile. Probably scared her. Just because you have experienced once cyclist being a jerk doesn't give you carte blanche to start being so aggressive towards another one right by a busy road. If someone behaved like that by a railway line and the person fell onto the rails in the path of a train then I'd expect them to be prosecuted similarly

Xol · 02/03/2023 10:08

To me, from watching the video, it's clear the pedestrian is at fault. There was plenty of space for her to move to the side whether or not the cyclist should have been there

But the pedestrian has priority and a cyclist who assumes the pedestrian will move would be silly. The pedestrian may not be able to move quickly.