Page 20 | To worry about Kate Forbes becoming first minister

Creatine11 · 2023-02-24T10:01:36+00:00

Abortion and LGBT rights have been something that have largely not been part of political debate for at least the last 10 years. Gay marriage was enacted in 2014 and was broadly supported. The last serious challenge to abortion rights was at the start of the coalition government with Nadine Dorries et all. However, broadly gay rights and abortion rights have been settled issues- it has almost been taboo for politicians to oppose them. Certainly, there hasn’t been any serious possibility over the last decade (at least) of any rowing back on abortion, gay marriage, gay adoption, divorce law etc. However, it is clear that in the heart of hearts of Forbes she disagrees with all these things due to her beliefs as an evangelical Christian. By all accounts she was very competent as a minister and has been a good MSP. However, as first minister she will be a figurehead for Scotland as well as setting the tone for policy and political discourse. Also, unlike Rees-Mogg and DUP types, Kate Forbes seems like an otherwise sensible, competent, ‘normal’ politician. My concern is Forbes being the leader of Scotland could normalise her views on these issues. While I don’t believe abortion or gay marriage face immediate threat, if it’s brought into mainstream politics it will become a party political issue and may well shift public opinion, especially given the current culture war. Politicians, journalists, activists and others who have held these views quietly may be emboldened to launch a new campaign against abortion, LGBT rights or some other issue. I don’t know this would necessarily just be limited to Scotland as Nicola Sturgeon and her policies had a very high profile in the rest of the UK and influenced policy. Aibu to worry about Kate Forbes becoming SNP leader and first minister?

Botw1 · 28/02/2023 09:13

@twelly

'Courtesy and respect of others views is so important.'

What courtesy and respect does KF show gay people?

Why should anyone respect a view they find offensive?

twelly · 28/02/2023 09:44

@Botw1

Respect is two ways, not agreeing with someone does not necessarily make their views offensive. However, I agree it might be offensive to some people and that is their right to think that but it does not mean those views are offensive. I totally understand that some people find KF's views offensive, equally I understand that some people found Nicola Sturgeon's views on the gender bill offensive.

I do not think it makes someone necessarily homophobic if they hold those views. Using the phobic tag is really in my view a way of stifling debate as it is an insult - again the use of term the biggot is way to try and silence those people who disagree (not just on this issue.) My point is that people are allowed to express their views freely and should not be name called. It is possible for anyone who is in public life or who works with the public to hold religious views, what matters is that the way they act is accordance with the law and in my view morally right (I understand that some may disagree.)

HBGKC · 28/02/2023 09:51

I prefer 'courtesy and tolerance'; I don't necessarily respect all the views I might disagree with.

HBGKC · 28/02/2023 09:52

...though I do try to respect all persons, irrespective of their views.

Botw1 · 28/02/2023 10:10

@twelly

So you think calling out homophobic views shouldn't be allowed but people should beallowed to express their views freely?

Isn't that a huge contradiction?

Her views are homophobic and no, I don't respect them

TeaKlaxon · 28/02/2023 10:34

twelly · 28/02/2023 09:44

@Botw1

Respect is two ways, not agreeing with someone does not necessarily make their views offensive. However, I agree it might be offensive to some people and that is their right to think that but it does not mean those views are offensive. I totally understand that some people find KF's views offensive, equally I understand that some people found Nicola Sturgeon's views on the gender bill offensive.

I do not think it makes someone necessarily homophobic if they hold those views. Using the phobic tag is really in my view a way of stifling debate as it is an insult - again the use of term the biggot is way to try and silence those people who disagree (not just on this issue.) My point is that people are allowed to express their views freely and should not be name called. It is possible for anyone who is in public life or who works with the public to hold religious views, what matters is that the way they act is accordance with the law and in my view morally right (I understand that some may disagree.)

Homophobic has a specific meaning that includes prejudice against gay people.

What about opposing gay marriage do you think does not display prejudice against gay people?

And if it is an example of prejudice against gay people, why is it unreasonable of gay people to point it out. Do you also think misogynists shouldn't be called misogynists because it's insulting?

twelly · 28/02/2023 10:36

HBGKC · 28/02/2023 09:51

I prefer 'courtesy and tolerance'; I don't necessarily respect all the views I might disagree with.

I think that this is a fair point.

HBGKC · 28/02/2023 10:50

@TeaKlaxon this question "What about opposing gay marriage do you think does not display prejudice against gay people?" has been answered multiple times by different posters on this thread.

You disagree/don't accept the answers - fine. People are allowed to disagree with you, as you are with them. It's really simple. And explaining it over and over is getting tedious.

TeaKlaxon · 28/02/2023 10:56

HBGKC · 28/02/2023 10:50

@TeaKlaxon this question "What about opposing gay marriage do you think does not display prejudice against gay people?" has been answered multiple times by different posters on this thread.

You disagree/don't accept the answers - fine. People are allowed to disagree with you, as you are with them. It's really simple. And explaining it over and over is getting tedious.

It actually hasn't been answered.

We've had 'marriage was traditionally about raising children' - but that doesn't bear scrutiny since (a) it's not exclusively about that; (b) having children isn't a necessary condition for marriage; and (c) lots of gay couples do raise children together.

By all means, set out why you think someone like Kate Forbes' opposition to same sex marriage doesn't boil down to prejudice against gay couples.

HBGKC · 28/02/2023 12:11

It has been answered; just not to your liking.

twelly · 28/02/2023 12:24

@TeaKlaxon
People have stated their views are line with the teachings of the church or in some cases due to other beliefs, that is their explanation. You and others disagree but that is their belief. The fact people don't like an expulsion doesn't mean its not valid.

lifeturnsonadime · 28/02/2023 12:42

@TeaKlaxon

What is it about believing that lesbians can have penises that isn't homophobic, because this is what HY and the Gender Bill stands for.

I am personally much more offended by that homophobia than by someone who has views but has made it clear that they won't let their views impact on their policies on gay marriage.

TeaKlaxon · 28/02/2023 13:48

twelly · 28/02/2023 12:24

@TeaKlaxon
People have stated their views are line with the teachings of the church or in some cases due to other beliefs, that is their explanation. You and others disagree but that is their belief. The fact people don't like an expulsion doesn't mean its not valid.

Saying that you believe X because of your religious faith is an explanation of why you hold that belief.

It is not an explanation of why X isn't homophobic.

Unless you think rooting a belief in religion means it can't be homophobic, which is plainly absurd.

TeaKlaxon · 28/02/2023 13:51

lifeturnsonadime · 28/02/2023 12:42

@TeaKlaxon

What is it about believing that lesbians can have penises that isn't homophobic, because this is what HY and the Gender Bill stands for.

I am personally much more offended by that homophobia than by someone who has views but has made it clear that they won't let their views impact on their policies on gay marriage.

And yet here's a lesbian telling you that being trans inclusive isn't homophobic. And lots and lots of other lesbians feel the same way,

But again, that's deflection. "Well Humza Yousaf is also homophobic' isn't the defence of Kate Forbes' homophobia that you think it is, even if it were true. Which I don't think it is because I don't see how anyone can plausibly argue that viewing trans women as women is prejudice against gay people.

Eyerollcentral · 28/02/2023 13:58

TeaKlaxon · 28/02/2023 13:51

And yet here's a lesbian telling you that being trans inclusive isn't homophobic. And lots and lots of other lesbians feel the same way,

But again, that's deflection. "Well Humza Yousaf is also homophobic' isn't the defence of Kate Forbes' homophobia that you think it is, even if it were true. Which I don't think it is because I don't see how anyone can plausibly argue that viewing trans women as women is prejudice against gay people.

Show quote history

And many, many lesbians disagree and believe trans ideology is inherently homophobic…did you not see the report in to the Tavistock clinic? The clinicians were joking that at this rate there will be no gay people left as the vast majority of those referred (mostly teenage girls) were children likely to be gay.

lifeturnsonadime · 28/02/2023 14:00

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Eyerollcentral · 28/02/2023 14:04

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lifeturnsonadime · 28/02/2023 14:14

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twelly · 28/02/2023 14:18

I think the argument is going around in circles and is rather pointless, my view which I believe is held many, equally many will disagree. The view that KF takes does not necessarily mean that she is homophobic. Holding a view based on faith does not necessarily mean a person is homophobic. Religion and belief is a protected characteristic.

Calling someone a phobic is quite insulting, particularly as in their behaviour they do not display those characteristics. It seems to me as if intolerance is allowed and nothing but capitulation of beliefs is allowed. I think the people of this country will make up their minds and if KF is elected as leader and first minister and goes on to continue in that role we can probably infer that most people do not regard her views as a significant barrier and that they are not extreme.

Eyerollcentral · 28/02/2023 14:18

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I couldn’t agree more with you. The explicit misogyny is also worth noting. Sturgeon appears to have only been acceptable as a female leader as she embraced the trans ideology, which is completely at odds with the beliefs of most Scottish people. KF’s views may be at odds w many in Scotland but are anathema particularly because she is a female and rejects trans ideology

lifeturnsonadime · 28/02/2023 14:22

Oh what did I post that was worthy of deletion? Was it something about biological reality and that lesbians are same sex attracted and many lesbians reject the notion that lesbians can have penises?

Have I hit a nerve?

Eyerollcentral · 28/02/2023 14:24

lifeturnsonadime · 28/02/2023 14:22

Oh what did I post that was worthy of deletion? Was it something about biological reality and that lesbians are same sex attracted and many lesbians reject the notion that lesbians can have penises?

Have I hit a nerve?

See mine has been deleted too. Not really sure why. Perhaps @mnhq can clarify

lifeturnsonadime · 28/02/2023 14:25

I think it is the possibility that we have pointed out that someone claiming to be a lesbian could well be male.

If TWAW then lesbians can be male.

I think it has hit a nerve with someone. Mumsnet please do clarify because there was no personal attack and nothing that was not factually correct. No rules that I can see have been broken.

It is important that people reading this threads can understand what the motive of some posters of painting KF as a homophobe might be.

Eyerollcentral · 28/02/2023 14:27

lifeturnsonadime · 28/02/2023 14:25

I think it is the possibility that we have pointed out that someone claiming to be a lesbian could well be male.

If TWAW then lesbians can be male.

I think it has hit a nerve with someone. Mumsnet please do clarify because there was no personal attack and nothing that was not factually correct. No rules that I can see have been broken.

It is important that people reading this threads can understand what the motive of some posters of painting KF as a homophobe might be.

Yes clarification is necessary here. I agree re your assessment of the focus on KF’s views too.

TeaKlaxon · 28/02/2023 14:35

twelly · 28/02/2023 14:18

I think the argument is going around in circles and is rather pointless, my view which I believe is held many, equally many will disagree. The view that KF takes does not necessarily mean that she is homophobic. Holding a view based on faith does not necessarily mean a person is homophobic. Religion and belief is a protected characteristic.

Calling someone a phobic is quite insulting, particularly as in their behaviour they do not display those characteristics. It seems to me as if intolerance is allowed and nothing but capitulation of beliefs is allowed. I think the people of this country will make up their minds and if KF is elected as leader and first minister and goes on to continue in that role we can probably infer that most people do not regard her views as a significant barrier and that they are not extreme.

We are going round in circles and you keep demonstrating that you care more about not offending homophobes than you do about homophobes not offending those whose rights they oppose.