Mocking Christianity

[Ihatepcos]

I am so sick of people thinking it's okay to ridicule Catholicism and Christianity. This is especially apparent on Mumsnet. Every time there's a thread about religion I can't even read the replies because they're so awful.

The same doesn't seem to apply to the Muslim, Jewish, Hindu faiths etc.

If you don't believe in God that is your choice. But purposely mocking someone's faith and calling it a load of bullshit (and worse) is just not acceptable. So many people turn to faith to help them through extremely tough times in life and you are mocking the only thing that is keeping them going.

@Thekirit
I gave reasons as to why this might be the case. I am allowed to add further information to justify my thoughts! 🙄

I am in general opposed to book burnings, but I do not consider some books to be more worthy of protection from such things than others. So my stance on this is: let's not burn books, but burning the Koran, the Torah or the Bible is no worse than burning the complete works of Terry Pratchett.

I also think that no religion should expect to be exempt from ridicule and scrutiny, and I will mock and criticise all religions in a completely equal opportunities way. I will also mock and criticise atheist extremists, people who believe in trickle down economics, people who believe in The Great Reset, people who believe COVID conspiracies and the associated antivax bullshit and people who persist in believing things that have been debunked. All beliefs are up for mockery.

@Thekirit i tracked down the Last Supper thread and read it.
It was in turn irreverent, funny, informative and interesting. Which posts did you find particularly trying, as a catholic?

Yep. Book burning is idiotic in general, but I don’t care about one religious text being burnt over any other, they’re all nonsense in my opinion.

All beliefs are up for mockery.

Indeed. And any that "aren't" should axiomatically be subjected to more scrutiny and ridicule. Until they are.

I'll be honest, occasionally, Dawkins gets right on my tits with his attitude that you can't mock atheism and that evolution is a sacred cow. And I am an atheist who believes in evolution ...

@SerendipityJane I feel exactly the same way and I too am an atheist who thinks that on balance of probability, evolution is the best fit explanation for why life is where it is. Until one of Popper's metaphorical black swans comes along, that's what I'm sticking with.

Not Catholic
The last supper was painted for Benedictine monks in Milan….the Benedictine monks are Catholic!

Although obviously all Protestants, c of e and Christian’s also believe in the last supper…..so not exclusive.

From my own perspective, whilst I get where you’re coming from comments could be seen as funny. The OPs question is about mocking Christianity. These comments could definitely be seen by Catholics, who believe in icons and hence would regard a painting of a religious scene with the apostles and Jesus in as mocking.

It is against UK law to make offensive remarks about someone’s religion
Icons for Catholics, and lots of other religions have icons too, would come into this remit. Mock the icon, mock the religion.

That's one point of view.
The other is that if you're going to extend protection of religion into paintings based on a book about a religion you're going too far.

You would have to be exceedingly thin skinned to take exception to anything on that thread.

As an aside
Id hardly be Catholic with the name The Kirit

It is against UK law to make offensive remarks about someone’s religion

It isn't, you know. It is against UK law to discriminate against someone because of their religion. That means you can't refuse to serve someone in a shop because they are a Christian, you can't pass someone over for a job they are qualified for because they are a Christian.

You also aren't allowed to use religion based hate speech, so you can't stand in the street shouting that all Christians deserve to die and that we should all bomb churches. That's hate speech and it's a crime. Rightly so.

You are absolutely allowed to mock religions of all kinds, that comes under freedom of speech.

Maybe you should read up on the law. Jokey comments on a painting do not count as hate speech.

@Thekirit

'It is against UK law to make offensive remarks about someone’s religion'

No it isn't.

How would you even police that? How would you define offensive?

It is against UK law to make offensive remarks about someone’s religion

Didn't protect Jedis or pastafarians though.

The same as mocking a statue of Buddha, A crucifix, The Star of David,
Is it OK to burn a loud of poppies on Remembrance Day. It’s probably not against the law ( I really don’t know) but the poppy is an icon of remembrance. Lots of people are against war but I think they’d stop short of such a display of mockery.

no, they are false analogies. Sure you can mock a statue of Buddha. You can mock a Buddhist. You can't, however, say "nope, you can't have this job becasuse you're a Buddhist" (other religious icons/religions are available)

Don't start with poppies. It is clear you're floundering around for false equivalences in the hope of finding something that a poster cares enough about to say "stop". FWIW plenty of people have MASSIVE problems with poppies and there are always dozens and dozens of posts about it in October.

A representation of something isn't that thing. (hmm. Interesting debate about transubstantiation coming up?) And mocking something isn't discriminating so not illegal. Mean? possibly.

Naunet
It IS ok. You need to get over yourself, no one is duty bound to believe what you believe or have any respect for those beliefs.

So next time someone burns the Koran, that’s ok is it

Yes, absolutely fine by me, burn them all.

I wouldn’t worry about it- the painter himself would probably not have agreed with your Catholic theology - like most intellectual people of the time in Italy he was probably busy embracing Hermetic thought (after Ficinos translation of the corpus hermeticism some decades earlier) Greek philosophy and Neoplatonism. Although from memory he was quite drawn to eschatological tales from the Church.He prob had a few giggles himself handing that piece over to the church.

Personally I like the flip flops.

But I’d love to know what you found so objectionable about the thread.

The churches current homophones stance re gay marriage is showing an utter disrespect for many people. I don't think religion is a force for good. I don't mock it but I won't hide my belief in the damage which organised religion is responsible for.

I don’t have a catholic theology.
I dare say Da Vinci didnt either, although he believed in a/ the god. No one really knows ‘for sure’ where he stood. There’s lots of theory. Guessing some family members must have thought he was catholic as they buried him catholic. Or maybe the church just did it. Who knows. It doesn’t really matter what religion the painter was.

Some people find certain remarks offensive, people are allowed to feel offended especially if it’s about something they hold dear.

The OP has suggested they find mocking Christian’s hurtful/ offensive ( I’m paraphrasing here ).
She / he actually said the comments were ‘awful’
…..and ‘unacceptable’.

Personally I find mocking anyones religious beliefs offensive. Just like mocking someone religious clothes, hair style and so on.

What is the mocker gaining from it
Very little other than the supposed gratification of mocking the fact that someone believes in something and perhaps trying to prove a point that it’s all nonsense.

@Thekirit two things:

1. Nobody has the right to go through life never being offended.
2. There is an enormous difference between mocking an individual who believes - which is rude and unacceptable - and mocking the institution that is an organised religion. The latter is a matter of free speech, and if an individual is offended by that, they have the choice to not read, to respond, or (in the case of Mumsnet) to hide the thread altogether.

@Thekirit I should also add that there is a difference between mocking (talking about 'sky fairies' and so on, which is childish and again, rude) and criticising an organised religion because of its views and actions towards women, LGBT people and those who believe differently. The former is rude, the latter is completely acceptable in a pluralistic and largely secular society.

When you look at countries where such criticism is not permitted and is punishable by imprisonment or worse, is that an example we want to follow?

Ah apologies, I assumed you were Catholic you stated what would be offensive for a Catholic, one shouldn’t be offended on behalf of another group, that in itself is offensive.

Anyway, given the intellectual mood of the time, it’s likely de vincis ideas were non-conformist , if at least his family was Christian he would have been buried in a Christian church (provided he hadn’t pissed anyone off too much) Much of de vincis work indicates broad influences well beyond the established church. I think there’s very much a misconception of how faith presented in those days. Belief in a higher power/god is no real indication of his views on a particular doctrine.

but I suspect he would be highly delighted to still be causing controversy some half millennia later😀

Sorry posted too soon - you still haven’t said what was offensive (to others apparently)

I'm not saying I just walk up to strangers and make fun of them, or harass people leaving church. But I'm not going to sugar coat how fucking stupid it is to model your life after a fictional book, written by men, 2000 years ago and then cherry pick which parts of the book you will abide by, and which you'll totally ignore.

For instance:

"the gays are an abomination who deserve death" Yeah totally, we hate the queers at Mississippi Southern Cousin Fucking Congregation of God.

"Sell your daughters into sexual slavery, but get a fair price". Uh, well they probably just meant that figuratively or something. That line's just meant to skim over.

"Love your neighbor as yourself". well ok that one sounds reasonable.

"If a man commits adultery, surely both shall be put to death". Should I murder my neighbor myself here? or farm this out to the mob?

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.".....hmmm, not sure this one will be popular here on mumsnet, let's pretend it's not in the Bible.

"Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior."......You ladies are all submit to your hubbies right? I know I do because I'm a 'good Christian'. Surely not getting any crazy ideas about thinking or doing anything for yourself I hope.

Interesting.

Is it never ok to burn a book - religious or not?

What if the outcome was worth it - such as providing heat and warmth to someone who would otherwise die without the heat?

What would Chidi do? (cultural reference there)

@cakeorwine I am fully in favour of using books as fuel when no other alternatives are available.

@ElonsMusky I'm with you - happy to leave the faithful alone, but if they accost me in the street I will (politely) tell them how I feel about religion. Had a local JW round the other day and made him give up on me when he realised I was genuinely absolutely fine with there being no afterlife. He was very respectful though.