That some small businesses are failing because they don’t adapt to the needs of their customers?

[Isawyou]

I try to shop local. Fortunately I do have some great independent places nearby.

What I am finding frustrating is for example the fruit and veg shop closes at 4.30pm. They start packing up at 3.45pm and it is really difficult to buy things from there where they are stacking all the stands with the produce inside. They also look unhappy at customers coming to buy at packing up time. It is easier to go to the Tesco express that stays open until midnight.

Other shops do not open until 10am and close early. So I can’t get there before work or after work.

They complain their businesses are not doing well and people do not shop local but they are not exactly facilitating it for the customers either.

@ancientgran people make strange decisions all the time like @Isawyou deciding that because a local greengrocer doesn't operate in the hours that suit her and also moans about people he will go out of business. He might or he might not but as long as she can get her carrots elsewhere it's only a problem for him. You and your husband have made the decision to go to a cafe that operates a more flexible bread policy. I think that is wise.

Or partially pre-cooked and just re-heated when ordered? Or already cooked and being kept warm on a hot-counter or in bain-maries etc? After all, lots of entitled customers seem to expect their cooked food to appear immediately after ordering and complain when it takes 5 or 10 minutes to be served. They seem to forget cooking time, so lots of cafes and takeaways have food "ready to go". They could well have cooked the exact right amount of "matching" ingredients, i.e. 10 slices of fried bread with 20 rashers of bacon, 20 sausages, 10 fried eggs, etc? By that kind of efficiency, they can sell the breakfast at a cheaper price. When you ask for something different, that removes the efficiency, so it's right that there's a charge for the extra time/potentially wasted ingredient that isn't wanted, etc. A charge of a pound for something different from the norm is hardly excessive!

I once went into a Tesco cafe when DS was young and a fussy eater. The only thing he wanted was a portion of baked beans, which were under the heat lamps in a bain marie. We asked for a portion, but the counter assistant refused and said that they could only be served as part of a full breakfast as they'd been portion controlled to match the number of bacon, sausages, eggs, hash browns, etc, so we ended up buying him a full breakfast! (And we ate the other items!).

@taxguru that is so odd as I would always ask for a full breakfast without beans as I don't like them and the sauce tends to contaminate everything else on the plate - I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who does this either!

Removing an item is very different from asking for something different or adding an item. Removing an item costs them nothing (assuming the price for the full breakfast stays the same).

This week I took her to our local community ed centre which has a great cafe. We had a fish finger sandwich each with salad and coleslaw (homemade) and Halloumi fries and tea for two. Cost £16.40 for both of us and well worth it.
The prices seem very random.

@LuluBlakey1 it doesn't seem random to me. It suggests that the great cafe in local community ed centre has lower rent and perhaps is subsidised and can therefore run at break-even or a loss which of course the independent cafe cannot do.

You can buy a second hand book much cheaper at a charity shop than a second hand bookshop. I doubt there are second hand bookshops anymore unless they are really niche.

There used to be but they couldn't compete with charity shops who pay a peppercorn rent and pay nothing for their stock and staff costs. Big charities set up shops that are exclusively for books.

It's not the customer's fault and it is of course it's your choice to take your aunt wherever you want. But it should be recognised that Amazon or Oxfam or the local community ed centre funded by local government or charitable grants may be driving independent retailers out of business because of their special advantages.

@taxguru I think you missed my point (or maybe I didn't make it that well) which was that why were Tesco being so insistent on portion control to match the beans with other items, when there are plenty of people who would not want something like beans, so they would have spare bean portions.

@LuluBlakey1 I love a local community cafe near us, but it is staffed with volunteers all except the manager, so obviously the staff costs are very low, and the building rent probably negligible. I think it's a great resource, but it's pretty obvious why that's going to be cheaper than a local cafe 100 metres away.

@sst1234

Having just wiped the dripping sarcasm in your post from my rhino hide umbrella, I feel compelled to point out that my ranty offering was an attempt to point out the bigger, more complex factors affecting small business.

Some posters get it, some don't - fair enough.

I try and go the extra mile for my customers, within my sometimes limited capabilities. I reserve items for people seen online for weeks because they'll definitely, absolutely, 100% be in for it in the next few days...... after a month, I hoof said items back into stock. I can guarantee, even if I have made gentle contact in this time to ensure they are "desperate for said item" they rock up a few months down the line and are desperately disappointed when I have put them out for other customers to, you know, actually buy. With money.

So someone will no doubt suggest I require a deposit or payment up front..... tried that ...... "I don't get paid till next week".... "I have an unexpected bill...." "I am poor"..... all valid and understandable..... and in order to be community spirited I just smile and nod and cross my fingers....

While I will happily chase trends, keep an eye on the market and accommodate my clientele's desires as far as I can, the points I raised in my previous post are not sheer defeatism but based on as careful analysis of the market as I can muster as a sole trader also occupied with the mundane tasks that go with running a bricks and mortar shop.

No doubt, as evidenced by posts here, there are badly run small businesses, but those that truly are doing their damnedest and still struggling, are at the whim of those fabled market forces, and even global geopolitics..... supply chains, shortages, stuff like that.

The insistence that enough positive energy chanelled into new innovation will always trump outside influence smacks somewhat of the MLM model...... and law of attraction thinking..... believe me, I try to remain upbeat and positive, and I know there is a market for my niche.

But for the small business with tight cash flow, a bad week can make all the difference in terms of re-stocking etc.

I'm sure the next suggestion might be "If it's all so dreadful why don't you pack it in and get a job? After all, you're privileged to run a business and have that independence".

To which I will reply that after 7 years survival, despite everything I wrote in my first post on this thread, everything I have is tied up in and dependent on this business - my entire survival and identity is this business (because I'm supposed to be passionate about it, and I am). I am 54 years old, so far out of the traditional employment loop that I am probably extremely limited in employment prospects.

I am well aware I can't have it all ways, and life isn't always fair, and I work with that.

Another poster mentioned that small business has costs that means that profit, pure disposable profit is rare..... overheads, stock and personal living costs are paid before all else, and helps keep the economy turning, just the same as any form of commerce.

Do we think Tescos are operating from a position of privilege? Well, when they started out, as a PP pointed out, the landscape was very different..... since then more and more rules, fees and taxes have been brought in that have to be adhered to and paid just to operate in order to try and make a living without recourse to state support or dependency.

Ultimately the exchange of currency is a tool that is supposed to help society function. We pay to play the game of life, but we're so fixated on winning or losing we fail to see that what society as a whole needs is more equality of opportunity and less squeezing if the pips by the big cheeses who already have everything they need and more.

So there, got that off my chest.

TLDR : It's complicated. It's ALL complicated.

@limitedperiodonly you seem a bit confused. I am not expecting him to choose his hours to suit me but I wonder why he moans about people going elsewhere when he packs up at 3.45.

He has lost most of his customers who shop at his rival who stay open late a couple of evenings a week and are actually pleasant to their customers.

Like I said some businesses fail because they do not adapt to their needs of the customers.

No, I understand your point, but the counter staff don't know if any future customers will not want beans, so they can't sell a portion on the "assumption" that the next customer won't want them. If they do, they may end up not selling the "last" full breakfast if everything's there except a portion of beans and that customer doesn't want the breakfast without beans - means it ends up unsold and in the bin. That's the thing with the "pile it high and sell it cheap" style of place, i.e. supermarket hot food counters, margins are wafer thin so they want to get to as close to zero waste as possible as any waste comes straight off their (already small) profit! They're not going to open and cook a new catering size tin of beans just to cook one portion if they end up running out!

When we had our shop, we bent over backwards to accommodate our customers. We were already open 7 days per week, starting at 6am (newsagents) and closing at 6pm most days except Sunday 1pm and Saturday 8pm (for national lottery). We tried opening all day Sunday one Summer for a few months, but no one was interested and we'd be lucky to sell more than a few pounds of stock that no where near covered power, staffing, etc.

We were on a parade of shops with a grocer, butcher, greengrocer, hardware shop, bakery, chemist. They all closed one by one over the years. We extended (corner position) by building into the garden, converted ground floor "back room" lounge into shop floor, etc., to make a bigger shop to sell more items. When the green grocers and butchers closed, the grocers started selling more fruit, veg and meats - when that closed, we started selling groceries, took over their bread orders, etc. When national lottery started, we were one of the first shops to sign up for it, attending training courses, paying for installation of equipment, etc. We started acting as agents for dry cleaning, photo processing, even coach tours. We had a photocopying, printing and fax service. We partnered with a Christmas toy catalogue company where customers pre-ordered toys months ahead and paid us weekly (interest free). We also had our own Christmas savings scheme where customers could add funds to their account to spend on other things for Xmas such as boxes of chocolates, posh pens, posh cigarette lighters etc and other "fancy goods" that we sold. We sold fireworks every bonfire night. All that on top of morning deliveries of newspapers and magazines, and we went round weekly collecting monies from customers who couldn't get to the shop and delivering other goods to them!

We really couldn't have done more.

We had no choice but to close down within a few weeks of a huge Asda opening up about a mile away. Sales halved the week they opened and fell further in subsequent weeks. Most of our "loyal" customers who'd we'd bent over backwards for, for years, suddenly decided they didn't want a local shop after all! It's not as if Asda sold everything we did, or sold everything we sold cheaper - customers voted with their feet.

Sounds like you did a lot and yes customers do vote with their feet. Could be many factors at play.

A greengrocer that opened nearby (not the one who packs up at 3.45!) was unaffected by the Tesco that opened just a few metres away. They have expanded several times and keep growing. They have worked out a formula that works for them and their customers.

limitedperiodonly

No, there's nothing wrong with treating a pet shop as a zoo, if that's what you enjoy doing! I think that's par for the course for most pet shops - especially as it might take some people quite some time/visits in observing the animals, before deciding if it might be something they want to do or not. It's not like agonising for weeks over whether or not you might be able to accommodate drinking a cup of coffee in your life.

You aren't costing the shop anything or causing them to lose custom. I presume you aren't taking up their time asking for endless advice as to how to look after your non-existent pet?! I'd say it's maybe more a similar principle to somebody standing outside, downwind of a lovely cafe just to enjoy the delicious smells!

@Isawyou the only thing I'm confused about is why you care. You don't go in his shop because it's always shut when you want to buy vegetables so how does he communicate his complaints to you? Dog whistle? Graffiti on your garden wall? Bat signal in the sky?

@Kazzyhoward despite your long and detailed post informed by your retail experience and openness to adapt to changing conditions @Isawyou has hit on the mindblowing conclusion that there were "many factors at play" but chiefly that you were doing it all wrong.

Believe me when I say I understand and sympathise with you.

I am always baffled by these statements - why do you care? I could say the same to you - why do you care that I supposedly care?

Why are you so concerned about about how he communicates his complaints to me? I wish it was the bat signal though! Maybe he could do a fruit and veg signal?

@limitedperiodonly did you not you have your carrots today? No carrot emoji unfortunately.

@Isawyou I contributed to your thread because I have a retail business and want to share my knowledge and experiences with retailers and customers. I don't think that's baffling or unwelcome - look how long your thread is. If you could work out a way to sell it you'd be a financial success except that Mumsnet has beaten you to it.

Retail is fascinating and some of the other retailers I meet have interesting ideas on what makes a retail business succeed or fail. And so do customers.

@limitedperiodonly Your contribution to the thread is not what I am baffled by. Maybe go and re read my post.

The overwhelming majority of people agree with my premise looking at the votes.

The overwhelming majority of people agree with my premise looking at the votes.

@Isawyou I expect that is because there are more shoppers than shopkeepers. I have views on many things on which I possess only a glancing knowledge at best of how they actually work.

I haven't voted. I might do in a doomed attempt to even up the score or I might go to the market before they close to get a courgette and a couple of pounds of potatoes..

@limitedperiodonly maybe pick up some carrots too?

For the well run small businesses, the economy seems to be set up to work against them. Everything about enterprise in this country is geared towards inefficiency, high tax, lack of available labour, expensive supply chains, poor government policy. No wonder our economy is doing so badly, when making money is seen as a bad thing and printing money to give out freebies is seen as good.

@sst1234

For the well run small businesses, the economy seems to be set up to work against them. Everything about enterprise in this country is geared towards inefficiency, high tax, lack of available labour, expensive supply chains, poor government policy. No wonder our economy is doing so badly, when making money is seen as a bad thing and printing money to give out freebies is seen as good.

Yep, fully agree. They're thwarted at every turn. Government just want them for tax collection. Customers hate the idea of anyone making a profit (even though for a small business, it's the owner's wage!). Local councils love to make their life difficult with parking restrictions, road closures, charging them for every service, etc. Banks aren't remotely interested in providing loans.

It's telling that huge numbers of "businesses" are from particular communities where finance is provided by family, laws/rules are often ignored, etc. If you want to run a business the traditional way, and you need loans etc and want to play by the rules, you're at a massive disadvantage.

@Isawyou

A greengrocer that opened nearby (not the one who packs up at 3.45!) was unaffected by the Tesco that opened just a few metres away. They have expanded several times and keep growing. They have worked out a formula that works for them and their customers.

Sounds like they're benefitting from the massive footfall of Tesco customers if they're only "a few metres" away, presumably it's easy walking distance and visible from the Tesco main entrance and car park? That's a pretty unique situation and they are very lucky Tesco opened so close and not, say, half a mile away on a different road, which would almost certainly have crippled them if they were somewhere where Tesco customers couldn't easily walk to them (or customers from outside the immediate area may not even have noticed they were there if it wasn't on the main access road). Very few businesses will be able to locate themselves so close to a big supermarket!

Yes they had a no swap policy but it was a slice of bread, they just didn't need to fry it. I can see the issue if we'd can we swap the fried bread for a sausage. We wouldn't have been setting a precedent as they had no other customers to see the swap.