To say the government is right to impose minimum service levels on nurses

[Stackss]

So today the nursing unions have announced they will be withdrawing from A&Es, intensive care units, chemotherapy and other key services. Now, I am not a conservative voter by any means and I do think nurses should get a fair pay rise (although I don’t think 10% is affordable).

However, I don’t think it is acceptable for unions to be putting lives at risk by refusing to provide life-saving care. The armed forces and prison officers are not allowed to strike- I would now support minimum service levels being extended to nurses to prevent the unions doing this.

I suspect I am not the only one and the unions need to be careful not to shoot themselves in the foot.

No nurse I know wants to be paid a lot more than they thought they would starting their job. The, rightly, presumed job rates would remain competitive and keep up with inflation if nothing else

Should we keep all roles at pre 2010 levels of pay?

Have you had no pay rises at all since you started your job @Autumndays123 ?

Sorry, whilst there are no agreed minimum service levels on non-strike days, I can't agree. I have not been on strike as there were not enough staff voting for it at my Trust to make it legal, but I see every day the impact on too few staff for too many patients every day.

Because some nurses on the old scheme can retire in their 50s. Thats not retirement age.

I didn't say they should stay on the same wage forever. You don't need to have high levels of critical thinking skills to understand what I meant was nurses knew what kind of salary a nursing career offers and they signed up on that basis. I understand cost of living has shot up and some pay rises are needed but that doesn't mean nurses should have their 19% or whatever they are demanding. They certainly should not be willing to let people die until they get what they want. I think that is abhorrent. I do wonder whether you'd feel differently if your child/grandchild needed emergency care during these strikes and something awful happened because the nurses were outside shouting about wanting considerably more money.

Finally, although I appreciate nurses work long hours (as was understood when they chose the career) and deal with difficult patients, it is not too different to care staff, who are paid minimum wage - although I do think care staff should be paid more. Nursing degrees are not notoriously difficult and the required level of 'skill' is pretty low.

I do wonder whether you'd feel differently if your child/grandchild needed emergency care during these strikes and something awful happened because the nurses were outside shouting about wanting considerably more money.

If you have to personalise an argument, your argument is failing.

Does the 100s of patients that die weekly (when there are no strikes) because they can't access care in a timely manner bother you as well? or the 7m waiting for treatment?

Probably not.. because its all one sided.. Govt takes takes and takes again.

My DD was doing a bed transfer on a patient the other day, the poor woman poo'ed all over her and the other member of staff doing this... that wasn't taught in Uni.. neither was the stress or the unpaid work or no breaks or getting ill because of poor quality PPE or none at all when working with patients with flu covid noro etc or being shouted (or worse) at by family demanding why you haven't done x or y or the Doctors that talk to you like your shit on their shoe....

@Autumndays123 your post seems to boil down to ‘don’t like it? Leave then’.

I don’t think that would help your scenario of trying to get help for a sick child would it?

@Autumndays123

You've e the cheek to talk about others critical thinking skills while chatting nonsense?

In order for nursing salaries to offer the same as what they did pre 2010 they need to be increased by approx 20%

So, no. Nurses aren't asking for massive increases or for anything other than to be paid the salary they expected.

You've already demonstrated how ignorant you are in what nursing actually entails so its pointless even correcting you.

Funny you haven't answered any questions about your own job.

And I worry about levels of service every day. For everyone. Not just my immediate family. People are dying on non strike days. That is not the fault of nursing staff. It is the fault of the government.

Finally, although I appreciate nurses work long hours (as was understood when they chose the career) and deal with difficult patients, it is not too different to care staff, who are paid minimum wage - although I do think care staff should be paid more. Nursing degrees are not notoriously difficult and the required level of 'skill' is pretty low

Yes something we all remember if or when we or a loved one is dying/seriously ill.
So in your opinion Nurses are basically thick and deserve what they get.. the fools.

If i were the RCN, the nurses would just walk out, indefinitely... financial reasons why they can't but at least it would show people like you that they are essential in any society.

That seems like a brilliant way to increase recruitment and retention.
It's not like we need more nurses or anything.

100%

The government are happy to run the service into the ground 365 days a year. Poor pay and conditions are decimating staffing levels, leading to unsafe care on an ongoing basis, but apparently we are meant to see nurses as the bad guys for withdrawing their labour on a handful of days, for the first time in decades.

@Autumndays123

And if nurses are so dispensible due to their low skill and easy degree then no one will die if they strike will they?

They don't have the intelligence or skills required to impact on patient care. Let alone cause a death through absence

So what difference does it make if they stele or not?

Sure you could volunteer to go to a ward and help out? Save some lives.

It's an easy job any can do after all.

A) How do you know that 10% isn't affordable?

B) To impose minimum service levels on strike days they would first need to ensure minimum service levels on none strike days

C) If they don't pay a a decent wage there will not be any incentive to do the job and then we will be in an even worse position.

You're argument makes no sense. I didn't say it was an easy job, I said it doesn't take advanced degrees or fine skill to do it. I wouldn't want to walk in and save lives, because I didn't sign up to the job! Why is that so hard to comprehend? Nurses knew exactly what the job entailed when they signed up to the career path and they decided that it suited them. I did not, so your argument is invalid.

There are many, many jobs in society which are essential and keep the country running, but that does not equate to them needing to be paid very high wages. For example, supermarket staff are essential in society and work hard. Should they be paid £50k a year? Probably not but if they all decided to walk out one day then the country would suffer. Needing the role does not and should not equate to salary.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have a pay rise, they should, as should care staff who do a very similar job and get paid half what nurses do. What I'm saying is when it gets to a point where you are blackmailing people by essentially saying give me what I want or watch these people die, it's gone too far. I could never, ever morally do that and it would haunt me for a lifetime knowing that people died so I could be paid better. There's also the issue of where does it end? If the government accept the 19% pay rise because people are dying, it's a great win for the nurses. Then next year, same again? Does it become an annual February/March event where nurses strike and leave people die until they get exactly what they want? When will they be satisfied with the pay? 50k a year? 100k a year? More?

My argument is not and has not ever been that nurses should be paid minimum wage and like it, my argument is you signed up for this role, the wage actually isn't that bad, it's not acceptable to threaten the lives of the patients to line your own pockets. It's pure greed.

A) How do you know that 10% isn't affordable?

Exactly. What is the cost to the country if we don't have an adequately sized nursing workforce? It's a huge cost, both financially and in harm to people.

Out of the 10% increase, 3.325% would go straight back to the government in tax and NI. A bit of the remaining 6.675% would go on pension/student loan repayments, but the majority of it would be spent in the economy (because nurses dont earn enough to save large chunks of their earnings), and potentially help to mitigate the recession.

it's not acceptable to threaten the lives of the patients to line your own pockets. It's pure greed.

I agree. The members of the government who siphoned off billions in public money to give to their mates' firms during covid (for unusable PPE or similar) should be held to account for their greed.

Nurses asking for a respectable wage aren't "lining their own pockets" FFS.

The government are disgusting- lining their own pockets and putting patients ‘ lives at risk

@Autumndays123

Your argument is that nurses striking will kill people so they should just shut up and get on with it.

And also that nursing is low skill so doesn't deserve to be paid better even though its essential and without nurses people will die?

Clearly your advanced critical thinking skills aren't up to much if you can't see the contradiction there.

None of what you're saying makes sense.

You don't even have a coherent argument never mind being actually able to counter point

You're just ignoring the obvious flaws in your thinking whole droning on that nurses should be grateful they have a job.

If I was a nurse I would just quit and go somewhere that would appreciate you and pay you right. So many people don't appreciate you and don't feel you are worth a decent wage for the hard work you do, yet they demand that you work and do the job they need you to do.

Honestly go to Oz or anywhere that's offering you a good deal, you are not a slave and do not deserve to destroy your physical and mental health for ungrateful miserly gits. It's a shame for those who won't get care but so what, supply and demand, put yourself first. Only when there are actually no staff at all will it be realized how essential you are.

You do not owe anyone else your life and service and I'm really sorry it's come to this. People talk about nurses as if they own them, as if it's their divine right that someone else wipes their mum or dads ar$e for them or acts o so grateful and happy and angelic for the opportunity to do so, and how dare they even think about having a coffee or sandwich on their shift.
Get out now and don't look back you really won't regret it

Oh look we found the CCHQ research intern

"What I'm saying is when it gets to a point where you are blackmailing people by essentially saying give me what I want or watch these people die, it's gone too far."

Exactly who is blackmailing who?

We will ignore the repeated warnings regarding staff recruitment and retention. We will ignore Jeremy Hunt criticising the lack workforce planning.

We will skirt over the years of headlines telling us of crisis in the NHS.

Don't expect us to negotiate or meet with you to discuss pay.

Accept what we give you or we will suggest YOU have caused deaths.

I agree, but then on the other hand so many industry’s are in the same position, they aren’t striking or risking lives…

Needing the role does not and should not equate to salary

how did you figure that out?

@Skinnydogz

Part of the problem is that people think that nursing is basically just arse wiping.

And while basic care is an essential and valued part of the role, it's not the only part. Even for untrained staff

I would be here all day if I tried to list everything we do. But it's not low skill and it's not easy.

We pay people who do much less important, easier jobs double and triple (and the rest) what we pay nurses and then have the cheek to say they are being greedy, shouldn't you be kind enough to do it out of the goodness of your heart?

It's such a sexist, ignorant attitude(note the comments about nurses gossiping)

@Workinghardeveryday

Lots of industries are striking though