To say the government is right to impose minimum service levels on nurses

[Stackss]

So today the nursing unions have announced they will be withdrawing from A&Es, intensive care units, chemotherapy and other key services. Now, I am not a conservative voter by any means and I do think nurses should get a fair pay rise (although I don’t think 10% is affordable).

However, I don’t think it is acceptable for unions to be putting lives at risk by refusing to provide life-saving care. The armed forces and prison officers are not allowed to strike- I would now support minimum service levels being extended to nurses to prevent the unions doing this.

I suspect I am not the only one and the unions need to be careful not to shoot themselves in the foot.

This is the issue with the whole of the public sector and not just nurses.

The government can't give pay rise to nurses because then they need to do it for ambulance workers, teachers, barrister and junior doctors.

I'm not sure about providing basic cover as I'm not even sure what it would look like. I think nurses need to be more realistic than 19% though.

I'm with you OP, I couldn't even imagine knowingly letting people (and children) die so I could have a few quid extra in my pocket. I thought nurses joined the profession because they want to help others, not sit back and watch people suffer. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

Plus, where does it end? So they are happy for people to die now until they get their extra pennies. Presumably next year will be the same, and the next and so on. Terrible behaviour.

Don't forget that due to the banding system. The entire NHS band 5 and upwards will also need a ride. We can't afford 10%. Though maybe if HS2 was scrapped....

Yabu. I support the nurses. Frankly, if I am ever unlucky enough to end up in ICU, I want to looked after by a nurse who loves their job and is well paid.

Also, I understand nurses work long hours but every single time I have ever been in hospital, either as a patient or visiting, regardless of what hospital or in what nation of the UK, the nurses are ALWAYS for the most part congregated near the central desk of a ward drinking coffee together. Maybe every hospital I've been in are the exceptions (unlikely) but I don't believe this can't even scratch my nose for 12 hour straight malarkey.

@Stackss “Personally I would make a best and final offer of 7.5% to nurses, with a 9% rise for those who worked through covid.”

Whats COVID got to do with it ?
The vast majority of nurses worked through COVID anyway.

The current situation in the wards is appalling.
Not unusual for staffing of 2 RGNs and 2 HCA for a 30 bed ward.

Thats well below the minimum service level.
Its downright dangerous!

Thats why nurses are leaving and striking.
Its not just about money.

The thing is you want skilled professionals who save lives but don't want to pay their wages ? The ratios have become unsafe 2 nurses to 30 patients !! It's impossible to keep people safe with that number of nurses there needs to be a change in the law about minimum staffing levels and better wages. I left I'm now on a lovely unit 8 patients 3 nurses and 4 HCAs, my pay is also higher , the difference is staggering. I came into the career to care , not to be a slave and worked to death.

IMO, a minimum service agreement for MPs would have made Matt Hancock’s stint in ‘Im a celebrity’ pretty interesting.

@Autumndays123

Do you have a chronic health condition?

When were you last in a hospital as a pt?

Interesting you always had a good view of the nurses st regardless of what hospital you were in

Some shifts are better than others. Even on the worst shift I make sure staff take at least 2 breaks and yeah, have a coffee mid afternoon while writing up notes if possible (lots of days it's not)

Im not sure why anyone would begrudge that or think that means they're lying about how poor staffing levels are or how hard the work is

Do you work 12 hour shifts? How many breaks do you take?

Doesn’t work we are in Ireland we’ve had blue flu where police phoned in sick because it is illegal to strike. It was just an illegal strike that they got paid for.

This. Staff are leaving in droves. Numbers for recruitment for training are significantly down nationally this year. People can’t afford to be nurses anymore.

The govt are putting lives at risk every day by not addressing the huge problems facing the NHS

The government are at fault here! I can’t believe I’m still reading nonsense like ‘nurses should care’ and therefore continue to work for less and less money in below the minimum staffing levels EVERY DAY

However, I don’t think it is acceptable for unions to be putting lives at risk by refusing to provide life-saving care.

however I don’t think it’s accept for the government to be putting lives at risk by refusing to negotiate on pay, there have already been strikes and the government isn’t being sensible.

Well, goodness me, why aren't you General Manager of the whole world? How has everyone missed this straightforward and reasonable solution? What is your plan for the rail workers?
Maybe give the Chancellor and PM a quick ring this morning before you sort the war in Ukraine, find all the missing people, and ....

"The Department for Health & Social Care (DHSC) lost 75% of the £12 billion it spent on personal protective equipment (PPE) in the first year of the pandemic to inflated prices and kit that did not meet requirements – including fully £4 billion of PPE that will not be used in the NHS and needs to be disposed of."

committees.parliament.uk/committee/127/public-accounts-committee/news/171306/4-billion-of-unusable-ppe-bought-in-first-year-of-pandemic-will-be-burnt-to-generate-power

Absolute bollocks that we can't afford to give nurses an inflation matching payrise.

You do know it isn't just about pay don't you?

Minimum service levels would actually lead to more nurses on wards than there are at present.

If there was a ‘like’ button.

OP, the NHS (and other public services) are haemorrhaging staff. The ones left striking are the ones who really want to do the job properly - dilute their means to highlight their issues and what do you think will happen? You’re advocating pushing the remaining staff into leaving because their options are exhausted and at some point self preservation has to kick in.

it’s short sighted and foolish by the government to think they can strong arm skilled people into working conditions they find untenable.

Thats part of the problem, nurses are seen as being a nurse out of the goodness of their heart, because they wanted to help people. Thats not the case. I have two different degrees in nursing. I'm not an angel. I have bills to pay, a mortgage, children to suoport. Its not just about pay. We haven't had safe staffing levels for years. My work place is running with a big deficit. We need to increase wages to recruit people and want them to stay in the profession. Maybe then we will have the safe staffing levels WE ALL WANT!! Nurses do not want to watch people suffer and die, but that IS already happening.

Yes, the OP and people who hold similar views don't seem to realise that trained nurses are a finite resource, that we require them and that we can't actually make them stay here and keep working based on whatever pay rise someone else might deem reasonable.

The government has been able to afford a 10% increase from April to people on benefits. Justifiable given the rate of inflation. The fire service has been given a 7% pay rise. Again justifiable so please tell me why NHS staff are being denied a pay rise?
4% was awarded last year which was actually less than that due to pension contributions. The lowest paid NHS staff are on minimum wage?
Nurses starting salary is £27,055. The media keeping piping on about the average salary of £35k which again is incorrect facts. Most work more than 40 hours a week as they are unable to take breaks. One nurse per 8 patients who are all vulnerable or needing continuous observations and monitoring.

The government keep on pledging more nurses but given they keep refusing to give a pay rise, very few will want to join.
It will get much much worse and I already feel sorry for myself for when I will need to be cared for. I left the wards 12 years ago and you couldn't even pay me enough to go back! Absolutely horrendous! Talk about the impact on your mental health.

I agree too.

I get the cost of living crisis, it is hitting us hard - but I can’t demand a pay rise because of it.

I took my job on a wage I agreed, surely the nurses did the same?

Is there a statistic to back up the “haemorrhaging staff” claim? Because I look at retention stats and see things like these from
www.nurses.co.uk/blog/stats-and-facts-uk-nursing-social-care-and-healthcare/

There are 704,520 Nurses on the permanent NMC register in the UK as of March 2022. This is up from 681,525 the previous year.

This means the real-terms increase in new (joining for the first time) NMC Registered Nurses year-on-year is 18,198 (that's the difference between the number of people joining and those leaving).

So, how can there be “haemorrhaging” of staff if we are gaining 18,000 nurses per year? And wouldn’t an extra 18,000 nurses per year mean that the government is working to fix staffing levels?

Then I read this:
These are the top 10 reasons given to the NMC for leaving the register:
43% = retired
22% = personal circumstance
18% = pressure / stress
13%= workplace culture
12%= left the UK
12% = Covid-19
10% = revalidation concerns
8%= patient care quality
6%= staffing levels
5%= other

And read that the strikes are about staffing, patient quality of care, and pay…but staffing and patient care quality are only why 14% of nurses who leave, leave and pay isn’t even in the list!

The #1 main reason is retirement. It’s the ageing population causing higher numbers of nurses to leave and even so, we are still gaining 18,198 nurses year on year.

So, forgive me but I don’t see any evidence for the claims of “haemorrhaging staff” due to pay, patient care quality or staffing levels.

This.

And I'm a chemo patient so the announcement frightens me.

I still support the nurses. What else can they do in the face of such intransigence? Our current government won't even talk! Disgusting