Page 12 | How much does my tenant owe me?

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 10/02/2023 17:53

UNILATERALLY!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/02/2023 17:54

See what I meant about raising this particular subject on here, Golaz?

Just as there are some awful tenants we all know there are some dreadful landlords and most of us rightly detest them - even other landlords, to whom they give a bad name
But it doesn't matter that you're trying to be decent; to some (and it's invariably the same posters) a way will be found to put you in the wrong for no better reason that you're a landlord

thecatneuterer · 10/02/2023 17:57

Golaz · 10/02/2023 17:53

“A tenant has an “obligation to serve notice to quit if he wishes unilaterally to determine a periodic tenancy, an obligation which is not ousted by any statutory provision in the Housing Act 1988.” (Laine v Cadwallader: CA 26 May 2000)”

Show quote history

indeed - UNILATERALLY. This situation is not unilateral.

MrsJaxTeller3 · 10/02/2023 18:00

Golaz · 10/02/2023 12:25

Hi all,

I’ve had a tenant in my flat on for a few years. She’s been on a rolling contract since the first six months. She normally pays rent on the 11th of the month for the month ahead.

I gave her notice on 22nd January, that I would need the flat back by 16th April. (Under a rolling contract I need to give 2 months notice, but I wanted to let her know earlier rather than later, to give her some time to sort something).

On the 4th February she informed me she had found somewhere and would be moving out probably around the middle of February. I followed up today and asked if she had a date. She told me yes- she’s moving out on the 18th and will return on the 20th to clean the place.

How much rent does she owe me? She’s already paid until the 11th. She seems to think she only needs to pay for an extra week until the 18th , but in the rolling contract she’s supposed to give me one months notice so I feel like she should pay until the 4th March.

AIBU?

For a start off the op hasn't kicked anyone out of there home, it's ops home, tenant was renting it per a contractual agreement.
You charge her per day after the usual rent due date, if you're genuinely happy to do that, otherwise she pays for the month as per her contract, and she has until the following rent due date eve to hand back the keys.
Did you take a deposit/bond from her op? Have you had it in an accredited bond deposit scheme?
Asking to see wether you have any comeback if she doesn't clean or there is damage?

Also to work out the daily amount should you take that option it's the rent x 12 / 365 or if it's four weekly rent it's rent x 13 / 365

Hope you get it sorted asap and remember it's your house don't let people make you feel guilty for needing it.

Knavesmirelass · 10/02/2023 18:01

I've been in a similar position as your tenant, I was given notice as she was selling etc and I was incredibly lucky to find another house quite quickly which in todays rental market wouldn't be so easy. When I informed her I was moving out mid month she wasn't a happy bunny as she was actually expecting me to stay up until she sold the house and she even asked me how on earth was she to be expected to pay for it until it was sold if I left beforehand and that I had dropped her right in it... I kid you not!

I was a dream tenant, I had the house looking amazing for the estate agents, the viewings and I left it in a better state than when I found it.

I just spoke to the letting agent who told me due to being given notice they said I had only to pay for the days I was still in the house then once I had cleaned and had handed the keys back that was the end of my tenancy and that they would explain this to the LL as my being fair in the circumstances should also be met with fairness. My monthly rent was usually from the 2nd to the 2nd of each month, I left on the 18th so I paid up to the the 18th.

Original poster

Golaz · 10/02/2023 18:03

WombatChocolate · 10/02/2023 17:50

Golaz
So are you thinking you’d still like to charge her beyond when she goes? Are you honestly suggesting that would be your preference?

As others have said, you don’t need to be dripping in gratitude to her for going. Remember, a tenant is legally entitled to remain until formally evicted. That can be beyond a year after the notice expires. You need to be grateful that you aren’t (or hoping not to) facing this. And so many LLs do. Being a LL means you do have to take the rough with the smooth. When it turns bad it can be spectacularly bad and cost a fortune and be extremely stressful. So when it’s smooth, you shouldn’t be complacent and just say ‘well that’s what they signed up for, they are only giving me my dues’ but recognise that the tenant has made choices to make it smooth for you. Tenants can behave legally, but not make it smooth and easy. It’s not purely the legalities that impact you as LL.

I guess perhaps you haven’t had many tenants or done this for long, because you describe yourself as ‘clueless’ - but perhaps the comments from other LLs and their longer experience throws a bit more light on it, and that simple appreciation of things going smoothly is worth it and deserved. Acknowledging a tenant as a good tenant and keeping the relationship smooth right up to the end and beyond, is well worth it and can leave you the the satisfaction of job well done.

And then there’s the impact of this thread on attitudes to LLs. Has what you’ve said here helped to promote positive attitudes towards LLs? Have you confirmed some of the prejudices people have about LLs? You might be stopping being a LL, but many others are continuing. Unfortunately, when someone posts on the internet and confirms the feelings lots have that LLs don’t know the law or don’t treat their tenants well and with respect, it has a wider reach. This thread will be all some know about LLs.

Why would you want the tenant to pay for weeks behind when they’ve vacated the property, when it’s you who has served notice and asked them to leave? Does it seem right? You know they will be paying the new inflated rents elsewhere at the same time. They e already had to move when they wouldn’t have chosen to…but paying beyond when they are there too….well…..

I’d expect them to challenge you. They probably know far more about the law in this than you do. And then the relationship is soured. Perhaps you don’t care. You’ve said a couple of times that you don’t have a personal relationship with them…this seems to justify in your mind, trying to screw people for every penny you can get if you can find a way to justify it. You might just find the property isn’t as clean as you’d thought it might be!

“What am I doing in Promoting positive attitudes towards landlords” 🤣🤣🤣 I have more pressing life concerns.

Having said that, I’m totally ok with how I’ve conducted myself on this thread and as a landlord. I asked for advice on what was reasonable.

I have taken on advice that IWBU in expecting tenant to pay according to one month’s notice, so I’ve already agreed , as she suggested , to pro rata rent until she leaves.

But since there was no real clarity on what the law requires (and I have been repeatedly criticised for not understanding the legal position) I thought I would inform myself and the general folks of this thread who have been debating it,

OP posts:

Gymnopedie · 10/02/2023 18:04

obligation to serve notice to quit if he wishes unilaterally to determine a periodic tenancy

I won't be/am not the only one to point this out, but it has to keep being repeated, especially if you are hoping to rely on that piece as your evidence for charging more rent.

Unilaterally - ie if she did it without any input from you, just decide for her own benefit to move out.

Which in this case she didn't.

Travelfan2021 · 10/02/2023 18:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This post has been withdrawn at the poster's request due to privacy concerns.

Alexandra2001 · 10/02/2023 18:09

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/02/2023 17:54

See what I meant about raising this particular subject on here, Golaz?

Just as there are some awful tenants we all know there are some dreadful landlords and most of us rightly detest them - even other landlords, to whom they give a bad name
But it doesn't matter that you're trying to be decent; to some (and it's invariably the same posters) a way will be found to put you in the wrong for no better reason that you're a landlord

Its about 2 weeks rent on a property that the OP has probably seen a 200% increase on, with no outlay in regard to the mortgage, so what are we talking here? a few 100... and quite probably made money on rent over and above the mortgage.

If we were talking 6 months rent, then fair enough, you'd need to pursue this.

As i explained in my post to the OP, which they seemed to like, its about balance, win some lose some and the OP has "won" great deal over the years... the tenant less so.

NB the only name on here i recognised is yours... so i'm surprised your not advocating she pay a years worth as a fine for having the temerity to find a place so quickly....

Nocutenamesleft · 10/02/2023 18:09

Yeah the tenant does still have to give notice.

thepatronsaintofbubblewrap · 10/02/2023 18:09

MeMyCatsAndMyBooks · 10/02/2023 13:04

Doesn't mean she owes you till the 11th at all, till the 20th February the day she hands back the keys.
Nobody in their right mind would pay rent on a house they don't even have the keys for anymore Ffs. If you ever rent again get a agency, it's very clear you haven't got a clue.

Yes.

Original poster

Golaz · 10/02/2023 18:09

Gymnopedie · 10/02/2023 18:04

obligation to serve notice to quit if he wishes unilaterally to determine a periodic tenancy

I won't be/am not the only one to point this out, but it has to keep being repeated, especially if you are hoping to rely on that piece as your evidence for charging more rent.

Unilaterally - ie if she did it without any input from you, just decide for her own benefit to move out.

Which in this case she didn't.

Good Lord I am certainly not qualified to debate the finer points of case property law. If I were I certainly wouldn’t have been posting on mumsnet asking for advice 🤣, but that is a legal blog arguing that the tenant still has to give notice under a section 21, maybe that legal blog is wrong, I’m certainly not qualified to judge.

OP posts:

thepatronsaintofbubblewrap · 10/02/2023 18:12

You sound like you've already made your mind up, do there's little point in asking. I'm so glad I don't have to deal with shit landlords any more.

Original poster

Golaz · 10/02/2023 18:12

thepatronsaintofbubblewrap · 10/02/2023 18:12

You sound like you've already made your mind up, do there's little point in asking. I'm so glad I don't have to deal with shit landlords any more.

I take it you haven’t read the thread

OP posts:

SilverHydrangea · 10/02/2023 18:13

Ultraninja · 10/02/2023 12:26

I'd just be relieved that she's going without any fuss and is even going to come back and clean.

This! So many situations where tenants haven't left in similar situations and local authorities unwilling to assist until they are legally evicted.

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 10/02/2023 18:16

Nocutenamesleft · 10/02/2023 18:09

Yeah the tenant does still have to give notice.

That screenshot looks really authoritative. You'll need a bit more than that to convince me (and I reiterate, I'm contributing as a landlord, not a tenant).

Nocutenamesleft · 10/02/2023 18:19

I don't need to convince you. You're not the OP!

I explained earlier that I'd seen this almost exact question and that was one of the answers

Doesn't matter if you believe me or not. Legally I was correct. The tenant is still under contract hence she still has to give notice.

Gh12345 · 10/02/2023 18:29

I wouldn’t pursue it

Minimalme · 10/02/2023 18:40

I think asking her to pay up until the time she is there (so a pro rata month) is fair.

You gave notice and she has found new accommodation probably more quickly than she expected. Rentals are very hard to come by atm and it would be unfair to expect her to pay two rents.

topherman · 10/02/2023 19:10

If you can afford it don't charge her till the 4th just to be decent. If you can't afford it then charge her as per contract.

Jaichangecentfoisdenom · 10/02/2023 19:10

Nocutenamesleft · 10/02/2023 18:19

I don't need to convince you. You're not the OP!

I explained earlier that I'd seen this almost exact question and that was one of the answers

Doesn't matter if you believe me or not. Legally I was correct. The tenant is still under contract hence she still has to give notice.

But isn't it wrong to convince the OP of something which is wrong, legally, which is what you're trying to do as you have nothing authoritative to back up what you're saying, just "cos I say so"?

Nocutenamesleft · 10/02/2023 19:29

@Jaichangecentfoisdenom it's not wrong. That's from a conveyancing solicitor! 😂

Nocutenamesleft · 10/02/2023 19:30

@Jaichangecentfoisdenom this is proper making me laugh! Oh thank you

Emotionalsupportviper · 10/02/2023 19:57

tattygrl · 10/02/2023 15:44

OP, just stop. Go to an actual source of legal advice. You are going along with whoever sounds like they know the most, and then if another poster posts something that sounds more legit, you're thanking and going along with them next. It could be any randomer with their own interpretation of laws they've seen on Google (no offence to any PPs, not thinking of anyone in particular!). People are giving very definite statements that vary wildly from one poster to the next. Seek actual legal advice for this specific issue you're responsible for.

Go to an actual source of legal advice.

And have to pay?????

😧

AfraidToRun · 10/02/2023 20:01

Technically she has to give one rental notice period. You don't automatically have a right to a partial refund unless agreed.

Is the pay date in line with her rental period? If so, I'd be until 10 March (assuming she served notice as required)