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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that this book should not be sold to young girls?

519 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 09/02/2023 09:25

twitter.com/Waterstones/status/1623584986740953091?s=20&t=WU0D0fzc6ClGJC5R-gJnuw

Waterstones tweeted celebrating a book that is about transing girls. Here is one of the illustrations from the book.

AIBU to think that this is directly promoting self harm to young vulnerable girls?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
hryllilegur · 10/02/2023 12:47

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:44

If one person regrets having a hip replacement, would we stop all hip replacements?

hip replacement surgery is not comparable to surgical procedures used to look more like the opposite sex. it’s a ridiculous comparison.

Meaningofthesea · 10/02/2023 12:49

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:40

All of those studies you quote are old data, and all have short term follow up periods with high loss to follow up. The numbers of detransitioners and the rates of detransitioning is increasing.

Persistent transition is now close to 10%. Importantly in this paper, it demonstrates it was not possible to predict who would.

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9067/10/2/314

Transphobia is not a highly cited reason for detransition (Table 5):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8604821/

That links to an open-access journal, based on 79 subjects.

Sep200024 · 10/02/2023 12:52

“If one person regrets having a hip replacement, would we stop all hip replacements?”

🤣🤣

ScrollingLeaves · 10/02/2023 12:53

hryllilegur · Today 12:47

^TeaKlaxon · Today 12:44
If one person regrets having a hip replacement, would we stop all hip replacements?^

hip replacement surgery is not comparable to surgical procedures used to look more like the opposite sex. it’s a ridiculous comparison

Quite. People end up with a working hip instead of being crippled.

Gender surgery mutilates all the functions except for repositioning the urethra ( which can go wrong see detransitioner Ritchie) nothing is going to work.

ClearMoth · 10/02/2023 12:55

Sep200024 · 10/02/2023 12:12

“Oh, and trans men who have had top surgery can often still chest feed, while many cis women cannot or choose not to breast feed.“

😂😂😂

That is an actual lie and you should retract it. You cannot breastfeed after mastectomy. If you had bothered to read the article posted earlier, the very in-depth case study, you would have read that along with the proper evidence.

Instead, you're, for some reason, incredibly invested in insisting that children should be able to make irreversible decisions that damage their bodies for life, even when there are increasing numbers of both individuals who've experienced this, and whistleblowers from within the profession, calling it out.

For those who are interested in reading, this is a good article:

www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

ClearMoth · 10/02/2023 12:55

To be clear I was saying that @TeaKlaxon should retract the lie, not @Sep200024 for reposting it with emojis.

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:55

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:43

People are claiming that teenagers (one PP claimed 'hundreds') are having mastectomies in the UK.

All I'm asking is for them to back up that claim. Why is that unreasonable?

On page 10, posters pointed out young girls are having mastectomies. You said no one aged 14 is having mastectomies in the UK. Clymene correctly pointed out we know it has happened to under 18s.

You then asked how many girls under 18 have had mastectomy. You didn’t specify UK. It was pointed out it was a large number, hundreds worldwide. You’re now asking how many in the UK.

The answer to that is not clear because of lack of transparent data. It’s clear it is happening though.

ClearMoth · 10/02/2023 12:56

JackGrealishsLegs · 10/02/2023 12:37

@Catspyjamas17 I’m sorry, I can’t get past this.

A book aimed at young Black people equivalent to the image in the OP might include arrows pointing to the body with phrases such as
”soon to be straightened” (hair)
”my imaginary smaller lips” (mouth)
”way too dark” (skin)

Do you honestly think that would be ok, or might it cause young Black people to think “should I be thinking this way as well? Is my skin too dark? Should my hair be smoother?”

I’m really hoping you’ve not thought this through, because that is one of the most offensive things I’ve ever seen on this website otherwise.

Thank you for picking up on this. I also thought it was absolutely horrendous. (It was me who asked @Catspyjamas17 the question in the first place.)

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:56

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:45

If you're going to cite studies, quoting the actual text and year would be helpful.

If you could do the same, that would be helpful.

Happylittlechicken · 10/02/2023 12:58

So if females with a trans identity can breastfeed after mastectomy, why can women without a trans identity who have had mastectomies not breastfeed? Is being trans some macula power that allows people to do something non trans people cannot? Also would the testosterone not harm the baby if they did? I know breastfeeding mothers are given lists of foods and drugs to avoid.

ClearMoth · 10/02/2023 12:58

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:55

On page 10, posters pointed out young girls are having mastectomies. You said no one aged 14 is having mastectomies in the UK. Clymene correctly pointed out we know it has happened to under 18s.

You then asked how many girls under 18 have had mastectomy. You didn’t specify UK. It was pointed out it was a large number, hundreds worldwide. You’re now asking how many in the UK.

The answer to that is not clear because of lack of transparent data. It’s clear it is happening though.

@TeaKlaxon is sealioning here. Asking bullshit questions, wasting your time, moving the goalposts, wasting energy.

It's not OK for children to be having mastectomies (in the absence of an actual medical need i.e. cancer).

All the rest is time-wasting bollocks.

And stats about transitioning and regret that relate to the 80s/90s etc. are utterly irrelevant in the light of the insanely huge explosion in young girls seeking (and frequently regretting) this 'treatment' in the past five years or so.

We haven't even begun to see the real impacts yet.

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:59

Meaningofthesea · 10/02/2023 12:49

That links to an open-access journal, based on 79 subjects.

Correct. Do you have an up to date study of more participants that demonstrates the detransition rate is lower?

9%. That means if you put 100 girls on puberty blockers, testosterone and mastectomies, 9 will regret it. When does it become too high a number for you?

To compare to hip replacements, anything occurring at a rate of 9% is considered a major complication.

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 13:00

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:40

All of those studies you quote are old data, and all have short term follow up periods with high loss to follow up. The numbers of detransitioners and the rates of detransitioning is increasing.

Persistent transition is now close to 10%. Importantly in this paper, it demonstrates it was not possible to predict who would.

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9067/10/2/314

Transphobia is not a highly cited reason for detransition (Table 5):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8604821/

The first study doesn't actually support claims of high levels of regret or detransition.

Desistence isn't the same as detransitioning. Only 3 out of 68 started cross-sex hormones and then chose to stop. That's about 4%.

The second study is junk science:

(1) it was entirely anonymous, anyone who wanted to fill out a survey could, there was no means of verifying that they were actually trans or had actually detransitioned;

(2) it was recruited from online sources largely known to be focused on a very small cohort of detransitioners who detransition for reasons of regret and feeling that transition was wrong for them.

(The second study was also conducted by the same author who thought she could prove social contagion by recruiting parents of trans kids from trans hostile websites, and then rely on their perspectives to prove that their kids had 'sudden onset gender dysphoria.)

ClearMoth · 10/02/2023 13:00

Most transgender guidelines do not include the impact of chest masculinising mastectomy on breastfeeding as a part of the surgical consent process. Notably, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Standards of Care makes no recommendation for counselling on breastfeeding before surgery (5) and nor do guidelines from Australia (AusPATH) (6) or New Zealand (PATHA) (7). Falck et al. (8) considered the experience of six transgender individuals who had chest masculinising surgery. They found the surgeon raised the impact on breastfeeding in just one case. This discussion occurred only because the patient had requested breast reduction (rather than chest masculinisation) and had not advised the surgeon of their transgender identification (8). This suggests a double standard may be at play in terms of warning patients about harms dependent on identity rather than procedure.

The impact of different surgical techniques for chest masculinisation on breastfeeding is absent from the literature. Research on ordinary breast reduction surgery shows that where the nipple, areola and breast tissue underneath the areola remain in place (so-called “pedicle” techniques) some milk making and milk removal capacity may be retained (9). However, when the nipple-areolar complex is separated from underlying glandular tissue, milk removal is impossible (9). The most common chest masculinisation technique involves separation of the nipple-areola complex from underlying tissue and excision of the nipple and areola which are then grafted back onto the reduced breasts in what is called “free nipple grafting” (10). Nipple reduction is a common adjunct, for which variety of techniques are used (4, 11); many result in a modified nipple with no functional orifices for milk removal [e.g., (12)].

It has been falsely claimed it is not possible to predict breastfeeding outcomes after chest masculinisation surgery based on surgical technique (13). Where surgery removes and grafts the nipple-areola complex, there is little to no possibility of milk removal from the nipple, even should glandular tissue remain. Where the nipple is kept in place but tissue underneath it removed and duct connections cut or nipple integrity forfeited, milk removal is also impossible. Furthermore, surgical complications such as necrosis can result in nipple loss (4, 14, 15) and surgery that removes the nipple and areola entirely may be chosen (16, 17). Considered together, these factors mean that many, if not most, individuals who have undergone chest masculinisation mastectomy, are unlikely to retain ability to both produce and extract milk. Proper discussion is required for the patient to choose and consent. Without recognising that the future will include pregnancy for at least some patients, surgeons cannot offer a conservative approach; either of deferring surgery or attempting to preserve some function.

AUTHOR=Gribble Karleen D., Bewley Susan, Dahlen Hannah G.
TITLE=Breastfeeding grief after chest masculinisation mastectomy and detransition: A case report with lessons about unanticipated harm

JOURNAL=Frontiers in Global Women's Health

VOLUME=4

YEAR=2023

URL=www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2023.1073053

DOI=10.3389/fgwh.2023.1073053

ISSN=2673-5059

ABSTRACT=An increasing number of young females are undergoing chest masculinsation mastectomy to affirm a gender identity and/or to relieve gender dysphoria. Some desist in their transgender identification and/or become reconciled with their sex, and then revert (or detransition). To the best of our knowledge, this report presents the first published case of a woman who had chest masculinisation surgery to affirm a gender identity as a trans man, but who later detransitioned, became pregnant and grieved her inability to breastfeed. She described a lack of understanding by maternity health providers of her experience and the importance she placed on breastfeeding. Subsequent poor maternity care contributed to her distress. The absence of breast function as a consideration in transgender surgical literature is highlighted. That breastfeeding is missing in counselling and consent guidelines for chest masculinisation mastectomy is also described as is the poor quality of existing research on detransition rates and benefit or otherwise of chest masculinising mastectomy. Recommendations are made for improving maternity care for detransitioned women1. Increasing numbers of chest masculinsation mastectomies will likely be followed by more new mothers without functioning breasts who will require honest, knowledgeable, and compassionate support.

ClearMoth · 10/02/2023 13:03

@TeaKlaxon why are you so invested in denying the harm, damage, pain and regret of detransitioners?

TicketBoo23 · 10/02/2023 13:03

So I did not mean “older teen” as in a 17+ Yr old, but an older teen as in older than a 10/11yr old.

That would be a 'young/er teen"

Because a 10/11yr old is not a teen.

So being older than them (not teens) would not make them an older teen.

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 13:04

hryllilegur · 10/02/2023 12:47

hip replacement surgery is not comparable to surgical procedures used to look more like the opposite sex. it’s a ridiculous comparison.

It is comparable insofar as it highlights the stupdity of thinking we should cease medical procedures because one person who had that procedure regretted it.

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 13:06

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:55

On page 10, posters pointed out young girls are having mastectomies. You said no one aged 14 is having mastectomies in the UK. Clymene correctly pointed out we know it has happened to under 18s.

You then asked how many girls under 18 have had mastectomy. You didn’t specify UK. It was pointed out it was a large number, hundreds worldwide. You’re now asking how many in the UK.

The answer to that is not clear because of lack of transparent data. It’s clear it is happening though.

What makes it clear that it is happening in the UK?

TicketBoo23 · 10/02/2023 13:07

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 13:04

It is comparable insofar as it highlights the stupdity of thinking we should cease medical procedures because one person who had that procedure regretted it.

It's not one person though
, Iis
it.

And since transitioning is a relatively new, developing area; the outcomes will only be known in decades.

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 13:07

ClearMoth · 10/02/2023 12:55

That is an actual lie and you should retract it. You cannot breastfeed after mastectomy. If you had bothered to read the article posted earlier, the very in-depth case study, you would have read that along with the proper evidence.

Instead, you're, for some reason, incredibly invested in insisting that children should be able to make irreversible decisions that damage their bodies for life, even when there are increasing numbers of both individuals who've experienced this, and whistleblowers from within the profession, calling it out.

For those who are interested in reading, this is a good article:

www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

The NHS thinks differently...

Chestfeeding if you’ve had top surgery
If you’ve had top surgery to remove soft tissue, you may still be able to chestfeed or express your milk.
It is not possible to know how much milk you will produce and if it will be enough for your baby. You may need to offer your baby supplementary feeds.
Your baby may find it difficult to latch on to your nipple if there is less soft tissue available. In this case, talk to your midwife.

AmuseBish · 10/02/2023 13:08

It's really interesting to note which questions certain posters are deliberately ignoring. I can only assume because the answer might expose their own wrongthink. I'll start another thread on it because I'm genuinely interested as to why it's fine for some people to insist that being a man or woman requires having a certain type of body, but other people suggesting it are called bigots.

Is there a conflict between the trans people that believe this and those that think any body can be any gender? Do we need to be clearer about what "trans" even means, because it seems incredibly muddled?

Lockheart · 10/02/2023 13:08

ClearMoth · 10/02/2023 13:03

@TeaKlaxon why are you so invested in denying the harm, damage, pain and regret of detransitioners?

She hasn't denied it anywhere that I can see. She's pointed out that some people don't regret it. That's not denying the hurt that detransitioners have.

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 13:09

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:56

If you could do the same, that would be helpful.

I did.

Every time I've referenced a study, I've quoted the actual text from the study...

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 13:09

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 13:00

The first study doesn't actually support claims of high levels of regret or detransition.

Desistence isn't the same as detransitioning. Only 3 out of 68 started cross-sex hormones and then chose to stop. That's about 4%.

The second study is junk science:

(1) it was entirely anonymous, anyone who wanted to fill out a survey could, there was no means of verifying that they were actually trans or had actually detransitioned;

(2) it was recruited from online sources largely known to be focused on a very small cohort of detransitioners who detransition for reasons of regret and feeling that transition was wrong for them.

(The second study was also conducted by the same author who thought she could prove social contagion by recruiting parents of trans kids from trans hostile websites, and then rely on their perspectives to prove that their kids had 'sudden onset gender dysphoria.)

4% from hormone treatment. Some are reporting as high as 30%. What’s an acceptable rate to you?

The second study is not junk science. It’s a qualitative study on the experience of 100 people. The paper outlines the methodology clearly. You wish to dismiss the “lived experiences” of these people because they don’t report the “lived experience” that medical transition is wonderful. Only the pure experience is valid. Anything else is blasphemy.

If you’re going to pour scorn on online recruitment, you can use that to explain why the self-reporting of suicidal ideation has led to the suicide myth for gender varying young people.

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 13:10

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 13:09

I did.

Every time I've referenced a study, I've quoted the actual text from the study...

Quote the studies so we can look at the numbers, years of follow up etc. I think I know which studies you’re alluding to but it would be helpful to confirm they all focus on short term follow up and don’t cover the current cohort.