Page 13 | To think that this book should not be sold to young girls?

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:03

RedAndBlueStripedGolfingUmbrella · 10/02/2023 12:00

If you have mastectomy as a child you are never afforded the opportunity to refuse to do it
Child on here means anything up to the age of 25 though as "their brains aren't developed properly yet"
Not child in the actual sense.
20 year olds for example are not children

So if you consider child to mean under 18, do you think it’s a bad idea for girls that age to be having a mastectomy?

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:05

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 11:33

As was pointed out to you a few posts back, we know 51 teenage girls age 16 and 17 were sent from Scotland to England for mastectomies:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ff0b02b0-1a5d-11ec-8d6d-67649e90fafa?shareToken=b8a372ad9402f34fa6e90c8eba962015

So if you consider all the other teenage girls across the UK managed by the Tavistock, with a huge uptick of females presenting to there over years, again, it’s likely hundreds.

And being over 18 doesn’t make it ok. Women are now grieving their lost ability to breastfeed.

Show quote history

But none of that supports the claims that they had mastectomies before they were 18. All it says is that they were referred for further assessment at 16 and 17 and that it was 'theoretically' possible that they could take place at age 17.

But nothing in the article actually tells us how many people under 18 had mastectomies performed.

Oh, and trans men who have had top surgery can often still chest feed, while many cis women cannot or choose not to breast feed.

Meaningofthesea · 10/02/2023 12:07

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 10/02/2023 12:01

One of the many reasons puberty blockers are a terrible idea is that they stop all the organs in the body maturing, including the brain. Then children on blockers, who still have child-stage brains, not even adolescent brains, are asked to make decisions that would be tough for a fully mature adult brain to process, e.g.

Do I want to give up the chance to ever become pregnant?
Do I want to give up the possibility of breastfeeding my own child?
Do I want to take the chance that I will never have an orgasm?
Do I want to accept a risk that I will end up living with chronic pain, incontinence and an earlier onset of various serious health conditions like osteoporosis, heart disease and dementia?

Think back to being a child and a teenager. Think about how many seem to think they're immortal and put themselves in danger because they can't safely and reliably recognise and assess risk. Think how impossible it is when you're young to grasp that one day you will grow old - and that likewise the old people you see around you were once young and felt like you.

When a child is ill, we give them a say in decision-making about their medical treatment as soon as they're old enough to grasp what's going on. That's in cases where what's happening is life-threatening or will affect their quality of life for years to come. But we don't give minors a say on matters where society as a whole has decided they're not old enough to make sensible decisions and where they don't need, or positively shouldn't have, the things that some adults have, e.g. alcohol, tattoos, driving licence, job in armed forces, living alone, being sexually active.

It goes against everything we know about child development to say they can make these huge decisions. Maybe lawsuits will bring the medical profession to its senses.

I have some good news for you:

Puberty blockers don't impact on fertility once ceased (they don't for children who are prescribed them for precocious puberty and they don't for anyone else)

I'm not sure why you think puberty blockers would have any impact on later ability to breastfeed.

Testosterone also don't seem to impact on fertility once ceased for around 4 months 👍🏻

I hope that helps some of your concerns.

Sep200024 · 10/02/2023 12:12

“Oh, and trans men who have had top surgery can often still chest feed, while many cis women cannot or choose not to breast feed.“

😂😂😂

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:14

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:05

But none of that supports the claims that they had mastectomies before they were 18. All it says is that they were referred for further assessment at 16 and 17 and that it was 'theoretically' possible that they could take place at age 17.

But nothing in the article actually tells us how many people under 18 had mastectomies performed.

Oh, and trans men who have had top surgery can often still chest feed, while many cis women cannot or choose not to breast feed.

Show quote history

Why do you do desperately seek to deny the fact that girls under the age of 18 are having mastectomies?

What on earth do you mean by “chest feed”? How do humans feed babies from their chests? With transmen, do you mean hold their babies to their chest with an artificial feeding line?

In what possible world can transmen who have had mastectomies breastfeed?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 10/02/2023 12:14

Marvellous news for the vanishingly rare dysphoric kids who don't go from puberty blockers to cross-hormones. That is the decision we're talking about here. Children who have received puberty blockers for precocious puberty take them for a relatively short time and then resume the puberty normal for their sex. We're in the middle of a huge unregulated experiment on the bodies of children, as the eldest people who got puberty blockers and then cross-hormones are still only a few years into this and nobody is properly tracking them to see how it's affecting their health.

nolongersurprised · 10/02/2023 12:15

Testosterone also don't seem to impact on fertility once ceased for around 4 months 👍🏻

do you have a citation for that, specifically with regard to girls who have been puberty blocked then given testosterone? We are talking about children on this thread

Lockheart · 10/02/2023 12:18

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:14

Why do you do desperately seek to deny the fact that girls under the age of 18 are having mastectomies?

What on earth do you mean by “chest feed”? How do humans feed babies from their chests? With transmen, do you mean hold their babies to their chest with an artificial feeding line?

In what possible world can transmen who have had mastectomies breastfeed?

Show quote history

She isn't seeking to deny it, she's asking for stats on how many there are.

I am surprised about the "chestfeeding" though. My understanding is it's impossible after a mastectomy as the necessary glands and ducts are removed.

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:23

Meaningofthesea · 10/02/2023 12:07

I have some good news for you:

Puberty blockers don't impact on fertility once ceased (they don't for children who are prescribed them for precocious puberty and they don't for anyone else)

I'm not sure why you think puberty blockers would have any impact on later ability to breastfeed.

Testosterone also don't seem to impact on fertility once ceased for around 4 months 👍🏻

I hope that helps some of your concerns.

Show quote history

Wrong.

It depends on the puberty staging the girl was when commenced on puberty blockers.

If commenced at Tanner stage 2, as desired and recommended by gender clinics and WPATH, no fertility is developed. Ova maturity happens in the later stages of puberty. Without oestrogen the eggs cannot mature. Girls are sterile.

Equally the vulva, vagina and uterus does not mature. They cannot have sex and the uterus is incapable of carrying a fetus.

If puberty blockers are commenced at Tanner stage 2, there is only breast budding. There is no development of breast tissue to breast feed. Which is immaterial because they’re never going to have their own baby.

The cessation of testosterone is only relevant to those whose bodies reached a level of pubertal maturity - periods - before it was commenced. For those that didn’t, ceasing testosterone won’t improve fertility. And then there’s the effects of testosterone on the vagina. Atrophy of the tissues. Assisted technology is often required to help get pregnant, thus meeting the criteria for infertility.

Only a complete cessation of puberty blockers with instigation of female puberty will see these issues resolve. If young enough, puberty may resume on its own. But once past a certain age it won’t. Exogenous oestrogen would be required with questionable success rates.

I hope this helps some of your gaps in knowledge.

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 10/02/2023 12:26

WandaWomblesaurus · 09/02/2023 09:25

twitter.com/Waterstones/status/1623584986740953091?s=20&t=WU0D0fzc6ClGJC5R-gJnuw

Waterstones tweeted celebrating a book that is about transing girls. Here is one of the illustrations from the book.

AIBU to think that this is directly promoting self harm to young vulnerable girls?

How can an award for CHILDREN'S literature be given to a book when its own cover points out that it has ADULT content?

Amongst the group that chose this book, are there likely to be 'minor attracted persons' and those who wanted innocently fishnetted/mini-skirted/huge-boobed drag-queens telling stories to little children at libraries? (Exactly who is in charge at Waterstones?)

What have children's bookshops become?

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:29

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 11:37

In addition, we already know that levels of regret are extremely low among trans people who have transitioned

Typical TRA sentence. “We already know”. Exert something as fact when the reality is the opposite.

We DON’T know. That’s the point. A paper released this week from Australia has it at around 9%.

So are rates of detransitioning and detransitioning seems to be more commonly based on the transphobia experienced after transition than regret about the decision to transition in the first place.

Incorrect again. This is a lie.

Show quote history

We do know.

A UK study in 2019 said:

Results and Conclusions
Of the 3398 patients who had appointments during this period, 16 (0.47%) expressed transition-related regret or detransitioned...Study findings are consistent with previous research showing low rates of detransition. Detransition was most often prompted by social difficulties rather than changes in gender identity or physical complications and was most
often temporary. Only three patients made a long-term detransition.

A Swedish study from 2014 said:

The regret rate...among those who were sex reassigned was 2.2 % for the whole period 1960–2010 with no signiﬁcant sex difference. The risk of regretting the procedure was higher if one had been granted a new legal gender before 1990 (11/15). For the two last decades, the regret rate was 2.4 % (1991–2000) and0.3 % (2001–2010), respectively.

From 2015 in the US:

Eight percent (8%) of respondents reported having de-transitioned at
some point. Most of those who de-transitioned did so only temporarily: 62% of those who had de-transitioned reported that they were currently
living full time in a gender different than the gender they were thought to be at birth...Respondents who had de-transitioned cited a range of reasons, though only 5% of those who had de-transitioned reported that they had done so because they realized that gender transition was not for them, representing 0.4% of the overall sample The most common reason cited for de-transitioning was pressure from a parent (36%). Twenty-six percent (26%) reported that
they de-transitioned due to pressure from other family members, and 18% reported that they detransitioned because of pressure from their spouse or partner. Other common reasons included facing too much harassment or discrimination after they began transitioning (31%), and having trouble
getting a job (29%)

From a review of 57 studies by Cornell University in 2017:

Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Poling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques.

hryllilegur · 10/02/2023 12:32

@LiesDoNotBecomeUs Bizarrely it says both ‘contains adult content’ and ‘14+’ on the back cover.

To think that this book should not be sold to young girls?

ChristinaXYZ · 10/02/2023 12:36

Waterstone's response to the complaints is awful. twitter.com/Waterstones/status/1623687314667974658 It is not the selling of the books (though censoring books for kids is far more acceptable than censoring books for adults) it is the active promoting of this book as a shortlisted candiate for a prize and the complete ignoring of the concerns of parents and of women who feel the book is misogynistic.

There is postive glee in that response; a really big eff you, endorsed by their management, to people concerned about women and children.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/02/2023 12:36

A Swedish study from 2014 said:

The regret rate...among those who were sex reassigned was 2.2 % for the whole period 1960–2010 with no signiﬁcant sex difference. The risk of regretting the procedure was higher if one had been granted a new legal gender before 1990 (11/15). For the two last decades, the regret rate was 2.4 % (1991–2000) and0.3 % (2001–2010), respectively.

A Swedish study showed there were more suicides among those who had had gender reassignment surgery.

A Finnish study noted it is not true that non-affirmed gender questioning teens have a high suicide rate.

Also the Finnish study found that gender questioning teens teens who were given hormones had higher levels of depression.

AlisonDonut · 10/02/2023 12:37

'low rates of detransition'...

Not by the looks of the detransitioners on the reddit group.

The issue for me is, if just ONE person reported issues, surely it would be in the 'trans lobby's' interest to hault drugs/mutilations until more work was done? It's like they don't seem to care.

JackGrealishsLegs · 10/02/2023 12:37

Catspyjamas17 · 09/02/2023 14:12

Would you be OK with a book aimed at young Black people that described their facial features in a similar way?

Yes of course. I hope there are books which explore why young people might be unhappy with the colour of their skin or their facial features.

@Catspyjamas17 I’m sorry, I can’t get past this.

A book aimed at young Black people equivalent to the image in the OP might include arrows pointing to the body with phrases such as
”soon to be straightened” (hair)
”my imaginary smaller lips” (mouth)
”way too dark” (skin)

Do you honestly think that would be ok, or might it cause young Black people to think “should I be thinking this way as well? Is my skin too dark? Should my hair be smoother?”

I’m really hoping you’ve not thought this through, because that is one of the most offensive things I’ve ever seen on this website otherwise.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/02/2023 12:37

Where is an accurate table showing the number of corrective surgeries necessary following from gender reassignment surgeries going wrong?

hryllilegur · 10/02/2023 12:39

I don’t think data about anything that happened pre-2010 is in any way relevant to what happening around the concept of transgender now.

Knowing about regret levels in transexuals in the 1970s tells us nothing about the very different situation now. It’s like pulling up data about road accident statistics from the 1920s to claim we do know about road safety.

Meaningofthesea · 10/02/2023 12:40

AlisonDonut · 10/02/2023 12:37

'low rates of detransition'...

Not by the looks of the detransitioners on the reddit group.

The issue for me is, if just ONE person reported issues, surely it would be in the 'trans lobby's' interest to hault drugs/mutilations until more work was done? It's like they don't seem to care.

You're using numbers in a reddit group to suggest high levels of detransition?

Ok.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 10/02/2023 12:40

Everything has changed so fast in this area that I don't feel those earlier statistics are relevant now. They date from a time when the numbers involved were tiny and at least 2:1 male/female, whereas now they're growing very fast and there are far more female transitioners than male, in the adolescent age group.

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:40

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:29

We do know.

A UK study in 2019 said:

Results and Conclusions
Of the 3398 patients who had appointments during this period, 16 (0.47%) expressed transition-related regret or detransitioned...Study findings are consistent with previous research showing low rates of detransition. Detransition was most often prompted by social difficulties rather than changes in gender identity or physical complications and was most
often temporary. Only three patients made a long-term detransition.

A Swedish study from 2014 said:

The regret rate...among those who were sex reassigned was 2.2 % for the whole period 1960–2010 with no signiﬁcant sex difference. The risk of regretting the procedure was higher if one had been granted a new legal gender before 1990 (11/15). For the two last decades, the regret rate was 2.4 % (1991–2000) and0.3 % (2001–2010), respectively.

From 2015 in the US:

Eight percent (8%) of respondents reported having de-transitioned at
some point. Most of those who de-transitioned did so only temporarily: 62% of those who had de-transitioned reported that they were currently
living full time in a gender different than the gender they were thought to be at birth...Respondents who had de-transitioned cited a range of reasons, though only 5% of those who had de-transitioned reported that they had done so because they realized that gender transition was not for them, representing 0.4% of the overall sample The most common reason cited for de-transitioning was pressure from a parent (36%). Twenty-six percent (26%) reported that
they de-transitioned due to pressure from other family members, and 18% reported that they detransitioned because of pressure from their spouse or partner. Other common reasons included facing too much harassment or discrimination after they began transitioning (31%), and having trouble
getting a job (29%)

From a review of 57 studies by Cornell University in 2017:

Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Poling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques.

Show quote history

All of those studies you quote are old data, and all have short term follow up periods with high loss to follow up. The numbers of detransitioners and the rates of detransitioning is increasing.

Persistent transition is now close to 10%. Importantly in this paper, it demonstrates it was not possible to predict who would.

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9067/10/2/314

Transphobia is not a highly cited reason for detransition (Table 5):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8604821/

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:43

NotBadConsidering · 10/02/2023 12:14

Why do you do desperately seek to deny the fact that girls under the age of 18 are having mastectomies?

What on earth do you mean by “chest feed”? How do humans feed babies from their chests? With transmen, do you mean hold their babies to their chest with an artificial feeding line?

In what possible world can transmen who have had mastectomies breastfeed?

Show quote history

People are claiming that teenagers (one PP claimed 'hundreds') are having mastectomies in the UK.

All I'm asking is for them to back up that claim. Why is that unreasonable?

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:44

AlisonDonut · 10/02/2023 12:37

'low rates of detransition'...

Not by the looks of the detransitioners on the reddit group.

The issue for me is, if just ONE person reported issues, surely it would be in the 'trans lobby's' interest to hault drugs/mutilations until more work was done? It's like they don't seem to care.

If one person regrets having a hip replacement, would we stop all hip replacements?

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:45

ScrollingLeaves · 10/02/2023 12:36

A Swedish study from 2014 said:

The regret rate...among those who were sex reassigned was 2.2 % for the whole period 1960–2010 with no signiﬁcant sex difference. The risk of regretting the procedure was higher if one had been granted a new legal gender before 1990 (11/15). For the two last decades, the regret rate was 2.4 % (1991–2000) and0.3 % (2001–2010), respectively.

A Swedish study showed there were more suicides among those who had had gender reassignment surgery.

A Finnish study noted it is not true that non-affirmed gender questioning teens have a high suicide rate.

Also the Finnish study found that gender questioning teens teens who were given hormones had higher levels of depression.

If you're going to cite studies, quoting the actual text and year would be helpful.

TeaKlaxon · 10/02/2023 12:46

AlisonDonut · 10/02/2023 12:37

'low rates of detransition'...

Not by the looks of the detransitioners on the reddit group.

The issue for me is, if just ONE person reported issues, surely it would be in the 'trans lobby's' interest to hault drugs/mutilations until more work was done? It's like they don't seem to care.

I mean sure, there are dozens of studies showing that gender transition and affirmation is positive for mental health outcomes for trans people.

But you know, they have some limitations of sample size so should be dismissed entirely.

On the other hand, you know what's a totally methodologically sound source of evidence - Reddit. You lot of jumped the shark.