... to be (slightly) freaking out about my woodburner?

[HappyAlley]

The Guardian is going really big on this (although we all know they have a track record of ignoring other vital concerns) & other news outlets have been reporting on this for a while. It does seem obvious that burning fuel inside a house is, in fact, very bad for you. I have a four-year-old & we've had a woodburner for 5 years, since we bought this (draughty, Victorian) house. Used a fair bit to cut down on energy bills. Two - four times a week in coldest winter; sometimes all day on weekends etc. I try not to open it loads but DP won't bloody listen; he's got that man-disease of constantly tending/fiddling with the fire for no fucking purpose whatsoever.

This is false.

The average life expextancy was lower, but this was to do with very high infant mortality rates and NOT short lifespans.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/lifeexpectancies/articles/mortalityinenglandandwales/pastandprojectedtrendsinaveragelifespan

"The most common (modal) age at death, for those aged 10 years and over, in 1841 was 75.6 years for both males and females; that is, roughly 35 years greater than period life expectancy in the same year. This discrepancy is almost wholly explained by the number of deaths at young ages. Childhood mortality skewed life expectancy."

It is a common but false belief that everyone keeled over in their 40s or 50s historically.

Even thousands of years ago, you could expect to live into your 70s if you made it through childhood and didn't die in battle or invasions. www.bbc.com/future/article/20181002-how-long-did-ancient-people-live-life-span-versus-longevity

I've bought an air purifier, it's a good one (as we also have 4 dogs) and on auto will ramp up and down depending on how many particles are in the air, it very very rarely ramps up when the wood burner is on, even when we open the door to put more logs in. It does however ramp up the speed when my dd burns her toast in the utility room, which isnt even next to the living room where the purifier is

@Lockheart Yes but people still died younger! Also those who did die, often died of respiratory issues after bacteria/viral related issues.

Look, scientists have done more than sufficient research and have declared these
unsafe. Why anyone would think they know better (unless they've done their own study, with all the relevant qualifications of course) than qualified experts is beyond me! It takes me back to 2020 and the less academic among us, all thinking they know better than the World Health Organisation and professors of virology! 🤣

To those who say they've been banned in many countries, here is the actual fact: The answer is no, as long as the stove being purchased is an Ecodesign model or was manufactured before the 1st January 2022. All stoves on sale will have to meet one of these criteria. So you will be able to purchase and use a wood burning or multi-fuel stove in 2022 and beyond.17 Jan 2022

scientists have done more than sufficient research and have declared these
unsafe

They haven't. Various quality studies have been performed, they all have their limitations and conclude that further research is needed.

They’ll wrest mine from my cold dead hands. And the dog would never forgive us.

And some researchers have even discredited their own findings due to corrupted and incomplete data being provided by various governments around the world.
Sadly many people will only read the headlines and possible progress to sensationalist reporting and not actually read the actual reports the media are commenting on. 🤷‍♀️It’s all too similar to the wave energy report of the seventies all over again.

Where have they been banned? I couldn't find information to say they'd been banned anywhere.

Try not to use it

I will be extremely annoyed if they ban woodburners if they haven’t already banned charcoal barbecues, log fire pits, wood burning pizza ovens and garden bonfires.

We keep our window vented whenever the stove is lit, ours is the smallest size of stoves - anything larger and from what I was told when it was installed (many years ago) you legally have to have a vent put in.

My dad had a house with an open fire and then a stove and a rayburn and lived till 80 so I'll take my chances. But I remember the days or lead in petrol and black boogies whenever I went to town (and i didn't live in London) so things are much better now.

Good shout on the air purifier, those that suggested them. Will look into them.

and that looks so cosy @Blossomtoes … I do love the cosines factor …

We have a shit tonne of intelligent air purifiers in the house due to a cat allergy plus owning two cats. Running the woodburner does not appear to cause a change in the level of PM2.5 particles, unless you have the door open for way longer than you need to put a new log in. (Outside air quality is of course affected).

Cooking sends the purifiers bananas, especially if the cooking involves any level of smoke. Having scented candles etc also sends them bananas. The worst was when the farmer sprayed the field opposite and it was at 500+ for hours. I would conclude that there are many more significant sources of indoor air pollution than a modern woodburner, although clearly they are a contributor to poor outdoor air quality particularly in more urban areas and where geography means that the air tends to sink (valleys etc). I do think some of the studies relate to open stove type use as the particles are ending up in the dwelling rather than vented outside.

note: I'm not trying to say that woodburners don't pollute; they do, largely outside and the impact of this is highly dependent on the characteristics of the area.

When various newspapers (particularly the Guardian) were screaming about this last year I looked at some of the research studies they were quoting and there were a few issues with the reporting.

Don't quote me but if I remember rightly some research didn't make any distinction between households that used coal/anthracite and those that solely used wood. They also didn't separate those households that used properly dried wood from those who burned green wood/any old waste wood.

If they didn't control for those who used a wood burner properly versus those who don't then I'm not sure all the claims about how polluting they might be can be trusted at the moment.

I've also got a vague memory that one bit of research didn't even make a distinction between the households who had completely open fires and those with wood burners when measuring domestic pollution levels. That's crazy! I'm not saying that there aren't issues - it's combustion after all - but more research might be needed.

Personally think they should probably be restricted or banned in urban areas where people have more heating alternatives but there are other polluting things we might want to get rid of first! But people who aren't in a smokeless zone and who use them properly probably shouldn't panic.

Its like every bloody thing the 'media' report on
if certain questions are asked in certain ways they get the answers that they are after to sensationalize it

I wonder what the relative total contribution to air pollution is by each of the following:

DEFRA- approved log burners burning properly seasoned wood,
Power generation and gas central heating emissions
Manufacturing industries,
Road, rail and air traffic.

...

Got a feeling that focusing on log burners let's the big polluters get away with murder. Literally.

*lets

Could you get an air purifier? One with a hepa filter?

Sorry, just realised I'm late to the air purifier party there.

Key thing with wood burners is to use well seasoned, dry wood and to only open the door to put new wood in. If you do that the risk is minimal.

The worst thing you can do is use wet wood or stuff you find just lying about.

And open the door a cm or so to wait for the draw, before lobbing another log in

This not new news. It's vvvvv well know for years. It's up to you what you want to do.

Im not really sure where this agenda is coming from. Its certainly going hell for the leather in the guardian though and has been for some time. The research about 'burning fuel' is flawed as not all types of wood, in all types of devices are tested.

OP - firstly in terms of life expectancy, poor life expectancy statistics were affected by poor infant mortality, due to malnourishment and poor sanitation. People have been living long lives for a long long time and living with fire for a long long time

Ive posted ths on another thread but I have been experimenting with an air quality monitor, there are a few around, they're not cheap but not massively expensive. I was quite prepared to change what we were doing if it turned out our indoor air pollution was being affected by our stove

Our air quality indoors is not affected by our stove one bit. It is however affected by our day to day cooking, both in the oven but moreso on the hob and we have a gas hob.

When people tell you tht they are bad for your health indoors and bad for your indoor air quality I wonder how much experimenting they have done? I would bet theyve done zero

Get yourselve a monitor and stop worrying and enjoy your fire.

Honestly, my DH has asthma and he’s not affected at all by ours. It’s a modern defra one or whatever they’re called.

My granny (93) has an open fire in the old draughty house she lived in all her life and my mum was brought up in and he’s more bothered by that. But not very, as it has great draw and doesn’t smoke but it doesn’t give out as much heat as it all disappears up the massive chimney.

anecdotal I know.

Everyone smoked!!!

There was no sanitation or health care!!!

There was poor nutrition!!!

But no, they all died due to their fires. Or those without fires died because they didnt have one. But overall, it was something to do with their fires.