Some woman enable misogyny

[2023newyearnewname]

Why do some women excuse men and their misogyny and giggle it away/make light of it as if it's nothing and ignore the violence towards women.

An example on The Jeremy Vine show this morning. Talking about the Tom Jones song. One presenter said well you should hear how a rapper talks about women and want they want to do to them. My generation (Z I thing she said) just take no notice and don't get upset about it. Isn't she just part of the problem eg accepting of men speaking about violence and acts towards women and what they might do to them. Surely she cannot have missed the face that many children listen, the growth in children watching porn and violent porn towards women and the increase in choking sex, violent sex etc/

Or am I just unreasonable, should I just not speak up and accept women should shut up and laugh along with the rappers. Youngish black woman wasn't offended at all about what the rapper says he wants to do with women etc. I found it a bit odd.

Yeah this happened to me also. Boyfriends in the past have told me how crafty and deceitful men can be to get sex... so I've also taken that on board.

Interesting that you have chosen rap as your example of acceptable misogyny. Are you white by any chance?

@shiningstar2

just go back & press the other option. You can swap as many times as you like!

@SandraCumin

"Interesting that you have chosen rap as your example of acceptable misogyny. Are you white by any chance?"

I used the example given by the guest on the Jeremy Vine show. I commented on what she said, HER EXAMPLE and was shocked by what she said about how a particular rapper says about what he would do to woman and how he talks about them. I think you missed that bit?

For the record the woman that used the example of acceptable misogyny was a black woman commenting on a black artist - does that help.

In my experience gen z women are much more sexist, conservative and misogynistic than older millennials/ genx ers.

Things have really gone backwards!

Yes many women are. I mean you only have to look at threads about useless baby husbands on here to see them out in force. But mainly I just feel sorry for them. A man hating women or seeing them as inherently worth less is simply being selfish, prioritising himself and loving himself the most, to keep a system that works well for him. Imagine the self hatred you’d need to agree that you’re the lesser being and be complicit in your own oppression.

I relate to this so much. I think my younger self bought into misogynistic crap. I think my older self is far more aware of it. But that’s also to do with social changes: my younger self grew up in the ‘90s.
Having said that, the shift from being a young, fertile woman to loosing your fertility, knocks those rose tinted spectacles off…

Yes but your aren’t. All you are doing is help perpetuate the racist idea that some cultures are inferior to others. You should take this thread down.

@SandraCumin

I don't think that misogyny is a black or white issue I think it's a man/woman issue. I was commenting on what a woman said about how a particular individual described women and what he would do to them. This isn't about racism at all. Men and women can be misogynistic or enable it which is what this thread is about. You appear to have missed the point completely.

I have at no point said that some cultures are inferior to others and I don't believe they are. You are focussed on something else, perhaps write a thread about that issue. This is about whether some WOMEN enable misogyny. Try reading it again and reading the responses!

@felulageller

"felulageller · Today 13:05
In my experience gen z women are much more sexist, conservative and misogynistic than older millennials/ genx ers.
Things have really gone backwards!"

The lady on the show definitely implied that her generation would just shrug off comments which were far worse and directed at women. What a man might do to them or want to do to them. I wonder why some generations accept this.

Stockholm syndrome.

MiL is a misogynist, she freely admits that she thinks most women are useless and a waste of space. If you ever say anything vaguely derogatory about men, she will immediately jump in with a ‘what about women then, eh? Eh?’ reply. Last week, we were all talking about fathers who abandon their kids and refuse to pay maintenance. Someone commented that in the majority of cases, it’s men who do this and she immediately took umbrage and started trying to argue that just as many women abandon their kids too. She’s also argued that rape victims can be culpable if they go out after dark and get drunk. Given that she was a single parent, it beggars belief.

I think it’s a colossal over-simplification to say that this kind of thing is enabling misogyny. If anything, I think to lay the blame on women for ‘enabling’ misogyny is in itself quite misogynistic, and there is a strongly misogynistic tone to a lot of the replies on this thread.

Song lyrics are equivalent to a work of fiction. Something like Delilah (or, eg, Where The Wild Roses Grow by Nick Cave & Kylie Minogue) is a song in which a fictional character is talking about a terrible thing they’ve done. Singing along to it doesn’t imply approval or tolerance of violence against women, any more than singing along to Johnny Cash’s Folsom Prison Blues implies that someone approves of ‘shooting a man in Reno just to watch him die’ and/or is enabling gun violence. What about Mack The Knife? I am enabling an epidemic of gangland stabbings by humming along to Bobby Darin? What about drugs, am I enabling addiction by listening to Lou Reed singing about heroin? What about books and films? Is everyone who loves The Silence Of The Lambs enabling cannibalism?

And before anyone chips in to tell me I wouldn’t say this if I’d been a victim of violence, I’d like to point out that I have survived domestic violence, have also been seriously sexually assaulted by a stranger. I’m also heavily involved in campaigning against VAW through the women’s network (of which I was a founder member) at my place of work.

Some people find a song like Delilah or certain rap lyrics distasteful or upsetting or have a hard time separating them from reality. That is OK. You feel what you feel and there’s nothing wrong with that. But there is also nothing wrong with believing that a fictional account of a character’s violence is entirely separate from any advocation or violence in real life, and condemning other women as misogyny enablers because they feel differently to you is judgemental, divisive and unfair.

Because women also grow up in a profoundly sexist society. We have to unlearn it too.

I got slammed on a neighbourhood app for pointing out that the 'girls looking for houses to clean' were women not girls.

Women are the gatekeepers of the patriarchy.

What does this mean?

Well everything in general woman excuse men for.

"Oh I can't let him go to Tesco because I can't trust him to get the right stuff" (eg men can't shop)

"If I don't organise all the cards he'll forget to get his mum one" (like her birthday and Xmas etc only started happening when you got together)

"Oh he's useless at doing/ can't do/ doesn't do laundry" (he never had clean clothes before you met?

If woman stopped enabling men to take zero responsibility once they have a woman in their lives I do think a majority of them would respect woman more.

'He helps with the housework and the kids'
not 'We both are householders and parents, and share the tasks'

Were you shocked that it was an older woman because you expected better, or just referring to her age gratuitously?

I saw the programme, OP. I find that JV is one-dimensional, as he sets up the panel to give, when taken alongside the phone calls, what are supposed to represent a range of comments, yet they are clearly primed to sit on one 'side' or another of an imaginary fence. I didn't recognise the woman who thought the words were ok, but she was described as an author rather than a presenter or journalist, so maybe she doesn't have the experience of feigning nuanced yet oppositional feelings that the others have learnt? She didn't have a coherent argument, just that it was a good song and wasn't worse than rap artists' offerings.

I don't dispute that some women enable misogyny though. As PPs have said, it suits some to do so, particularly when they are young and pretty (as the woman on JV was). There have always been women who think that being 'one of the guys' has more status than having girlfriends. There is a brief period when women can seem to have the upper hand, too, so she may not have experienced sexism yet. When she's lived a couple of decades, is being talked over at work, has less of a hold over men, is earning less than they are, and someone else is being feted as the voice of modernity she may well have changed her mind.

I think there are a few reasons.

1. We’re all a product of our cultures and societies. Certain things are normal and we don’t question them. Women stopping work because of children, things like that. Or they suit us and we don’t want it to change. Others don’t have cause to question anything until there’s a triggering event, such as PP who said they cared more as they got older and gained more experience.
2. Everyone sees things differently. I’m American and black. Surrogacy is normalized here. So it’s not as immediately shocking to me as it would be to women elsewhere. Also, it’s similar, to me, to military recruitment. The military goes into schools, usually full of poor minorities, and tells the boys they’ll pay for their college and they can support their family with this money, and they’ll have healthcare and people sign up because they’re desperate. To me, it’s more about the rich vs the poor rather than just misogyny. No rich person is going to hire me as a surrogate because I’m black. They’re going to exploit poor white women like in the Ukraine. I’m sure there are any number of issues that other women see as not a straightforward example of misogyny and they’ll be written off as supporting misogyny simply because of that. Everyone decides who’s right according to their own lines.
3. Everyone has different priorities. No amount of screaming about trans people is going to get me to care about it. No amount of telling me it’s about all women is going to get me to care about. Do I think it matters that women need spaces of their own? Yes. Do I think it’s the most important issue in the world and that I should forsake everything else? No. My country just got rid of abortion rights. That’s more important to me. I will note vote for republicans who want to restrict abortion further no matter what their stance is on anything else. I’m not going to put other issues above that.
4. Women like me are fed up with White Feminists who complain about the minimizing tactics men use against misogyny only to turn around and do the same thing to minority women. The whataboutery of white people experience racism too. But you can’t be sexist against men. Or my white privilege isn’t absolute/isn’t real because I’m poor, disabled, gay, etc. But all men have privilege all the time. Or I’m not responsible for other people’s racism/I hate the UK being called a racist county. But all men have a responsibility to educate themselves about sexism and stand up for women. Wanting to be equal to white men is not the same thing as wanting equality for women and I’m not willing to throw my hat in with those women because they’re not fighting for me. So I probably am one of those women who would be written off as enabling misogyny because I don’t put my efforts and energy in the places I’ve been told I’m supposed to.
5. Also similar to above, I find radical feminists to be just as arrogant, obstinate, and aggressive as liberal feminists. Terf is apparently a slur that I should find offensive, but it’s fine to call women handmaidens and traitors and cool wives. Also it’s apparently so awful to say Karen because that hurts real women and is sexist, but Wendy is fine because it didn’t go viral and those same women are happy to contribute to the bastardization of the word woke.

In conclusion, ¯\(ツ)/¯

Of course. We live in a patriarchal society and most women have been socialised to believe their needs are secondary to those of men and their role in life is essentially to support men and raise their children.

It’s absolutely endemic in society and it takes bravery, confidence and self belief which a lot of women don’t have to see past it.

It’s also much easier to live your life on feminist principles if you are financially independent of men. The majority of women are not and even if they recognise misogyny there are limits on how they can react to it without jeopardising theirs and their children’s security and wellbeing.

Not really. You are making it out as a black woman = all black women think it’s acceptable. It always seems to be black people and rap music used as an example while ignoring the same issues in rock music which has been around longer than rap music and still has questionable lyrics.

You can just press the correct one and it should change