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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to assume that parents are legally entitled to time off today?

110 replies

needabreak5 · 01/02/2023 15:15

this has been questioned by DH's employer. DS (6) class is closed today due to the strikes. We have no other means of childcare (no family and no paid childcare available). I had meetings this morning that I couldn't really miss but took this afternoon off so DH can work. DH took this morning off (used up accrued TOIL) to cover my meetings, and has been by his employer questioned why he wasn't in the office as they are too busy for time off at the minute - time off wasn't approved in advance. Time off is submitted via a timesheet and has been 'pending approval' for a week. I think regardless that it wasn't officially approved, he had a legal right to the morning off as time off for dependant with no other option. AIBU?

OP posts:
Original poster
needabreak5 · 01/02/2023 16:42

I’m presuming that you have no parents that you have befriended at the school gates that could have watched them for half a day.

I do...there were several requests of this nature on the class whatsapp group, no one was in a position to offer unfortunately. Most of DS's classmates' parents were WFH today with kids, cant really ask someone to take an extra kid too when they are working?! We have organised leave between us as a group and are juggling playdates for the next 3 strike days (e.g. I'm taking a day leave and 2 classmates on the next strike day, in return for a childcare swap on the other strike days).

OP posts:
whataboutsecondbreakfast · 01/02/2023 16:44

I'm not sure what 'paid childcare' we could have organised today? We usually use school, wraparound and holiday clubs.

Sitters.co.uk and Childcare.co.uk both offer paid, emergency childcare. It's not cheap but it is out there - you just need to look for it.

Hubblebubble · 01/02/2023 16:44

Unpaid parental leave is a legal right. It can be used for literally any reason, it doesn't have to be an emergency.

Rebel2023 · 01/02/2023 16:45

Our work said
WFH, with children if you want
Flex your shifts
Take annual leave
Take unpaid leave

Basically do whatever you need to

Blanketpolicy · 01/02/2023 16:46

DH's leave wasn't actually refused it was in the system pending approval

If it was me I would have been pinging/phoning/talking to whoever approves my leave as soon as I knew the date of the strike to make sure it was ok. He was very unreasonable/unprofessional/disorganised/immature (take your pick) to just ignore the lack of approval for a whole week then just not show up for work. Legally he was very much in the wrong.

I think this is one of those instances where men are discriminated against in the workplace. Employers fail to take it seriously that they have a childcare issue.

Agree with this, but that doesn't absolve him not showing up for work when he knew it was not approved.

Blanketpolicy · 01/02/2023 16:49

Hubblebubble · 01/02/2023 16:44

Unpaid parental leave is a legal right. It can be used for literally any reason, it doesn't have to be an emergency.

Unpaid parental leave is planned in advance and dates agreed with the employer, the employer can reject the dates and offer other dates. You can't just not show up for work and call it "parental leave".

ancientgran · 01/02/2023 16:50

As a survivor of strikes in the 70s and 80s we would work out mutual support, so today I might have had half a dozen kids but the next strike one of the other mums or dads would have them. I was quite lucky as DH had to work Saturdays so he could take a day in the week so generally he could cover it but we still ended up with a houseful and the garden would be wrecked with football being played all day. My neighbours hated us.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 01/02/2023 16:52

I'm not sure what 'paid childcare' we could have organised today? We usually use school, wraparound and holiday clubs.

In reality, it's quite likely you couldn't.

People are saying you could've organised paid childcare when what they actually mean is that those emergency options usually exist, if you throw enough money at them. But the demand today is clearly going to have been much higher than a normal Wednesday in February.

whataboutsecondbreakfast · 01/02/2023 16:52

Hubblebubble · 01/02/2023 16:44

Unpaid parental leave is a legal right. It can be used for literally any reason, it doesn't have to be an emergency.

You can only take parental leave in blocks of at least a week.

ancientgran · 01/02/2023 16:53

needabreak5 · 01/02/2023 16:42

I’m presuming that you have no parents that you have befriended at the school gates that could have watched them for half a day.

I do...there were several requests of this nature on the class whatsapp group, no one was in a position to offer unfortunately. Most of DS's classmates' parents were WFH today with kids, cant really ask someone to take an extra kid too when they are working?! We have organised leave between us as a group and are juggling playdates for the next 3 strike days (e.g. I'm taking a day leave and 2 classmates on the next strike day, in return for a childcare swap on the other strike days).

Just saw this after I posted. It is a good way to cover it with using minimal leave days.

ancientgran · 01/02/2023 16:55

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 01/02/2023 16:52

I'm not sure what 'paid childcare' we could have organised today? We usually use school, wraparound and holiday clubs.

In reality, it's quite likely you couldn't.

People are saying you could've organised paid childcare when what they actually mean is that those emergency options usually exist, if you throw enough money at them. But the demand today is clearly going to have been much higher than a normal Wednesday in February.

I was thinking it might be hard today, everyone booked up. I wonder if a local teenager would be able to do it? I suppose it depends on the age of the child and how responsible the teenager is.

My boiler has broken down today so I'm a bit short of cash, maybe I should have advertised my services.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 01/02/2023 16:57

I suppose it depends on the age of the child and how responsible the teenager is.

If OP would consider one 16 or under there's probably a greater than usual supply today!

OchreDandelion · 01/02/2023 16:58

needabreak5 · 01/02/2023 16:35

Thanks for the replies - to clarify DS is age 6 (not Y6), so cant really be left alone. We also have a DC age 4 but nursery was open.

Out of interest, what do you do when DS is ill / you have meetings you can't cancel?

Again we would juggle between us depending on whose work commitments we think are more time critical / or a hassle to cancel on that given day. If i dont have meetings, my employer can be a bit flexible and i can make up hours evenings and weekends when DH is back from work (he is unable to WFH except extreme circumstances).
Today we have both been very busy unfortunately, so a bit of a clash. My meetings were in person and weren't easy to cancel. DH's leave wasn't actually refused it was in the system pending approval so i just went ahead to work and was for the afternoon.

I'm not sure what 'paid childcare' we could have organised today? We usually use school, wraparound and holiday clubs.

When caught in similar-ish situations, I have used www.sitters.co.uk; done a swap with a friend; begged a family member, hired a local teenager...

TheOrigRights · 01/02/2023 16:59

needabreak5 · 01/02/2023 15:25

thats what annoying, I know the strikes were foreseen, but he submitted the request last week as soon as the school announced that DS's class would be closed. I don't think we had any alternative to the arrangement we made today, so it was emergency dependant leave if the time off couldn't be approved?

It's not really an emergency. They are arguing that you had time to put something in place, which you did.
Read up about it

WestBridgewater · 01/02/2023 17:07

Justalittlebitduckling · 01/02/2023 16:39

I think this is one of those instances where men are discriminated against in the workplace. Employers fail to take it seriously that they have a childcare issue.

Women, working mothers in particular have been discriminated against for decades by men who fail to take it seriously that they have a childcare issue because wifey was at home and he didn’t have to give it a second thought. Now childcare is shared more and there are more working mothers in good jobs who can’t necessarily drop everything the men are finding out what it’s been like for women for years.

CottonSock · 01/02/2023 17:07

I'm civil service and there were other unions striking today so no leave or toil was authorised as against the rules. Expected to make other childcare arrangements. Luckily our school opened.

Viviennemary · 01/02/2023 17:09

No. He should have taken annual leave. Or made the time up. It's not emergency leave.

whatadaythatwas · 01/02/2023 17:25

It's a warning not a sackable offence for someone with over 2 years service imo

NewFriday · 01/02/2023 17:30

You're entitled to emergency leave to sort out emergency childcare, but as we've know about the strikes for (2?) weeks I don't think this would count.

I mean, any decent employer would accommodate, especially as it's time owed, but they're no legally obliged to. Also emergency leave is unpaid.

Mumheadflop · 01/02/2023 17:46

A legal advisor told me a couple of years ago that there was a case where a tribunal ruled that a mum did have the right to emergency time off for dependents when she knew in advance that child care was needed but had no other options for child care. That suggests that maybe for some people today could genuinely have been time off for an emergency, even though they had notice.

lanthanum · 01/02/2023 17:56

If they had refused his leave request last week, then they could perhaps reasonably argue that he'd had plenty of time to make other arrangements. However if he'd had no reason to think the leave wouldn't be approved, it's unclear at what point he should have known it wasn't going to be possible. How long does it normally take to get approval? Did he attempt to chase up the approval? Or is it so rarely declined that it was reasonable to assume it would be approved?

Given the likelihood of more strikes, it might be worth seeking out some other options. Are there other parents you could trade childcare with? Local sixth formers who might be off too? If you can usually juggle to cover most of it, it might just be a case of organising someone to have him for a couple of hours.

MajorCarolDanvers · 01/02/2023 17:59

Hubblebubble · 01/02/2023 16:44

Unpaid parental leave is a legal right. It can be used for literally any reason, it doesn't have to be an emergency.

Correct but it must be agreed in advance and booked in one week blocks.

Parental leave and emergency leave are different things.

Emergency leave for dependents is also a legal right but for emergencies.

MrsPinkCock · 01/02/2023 17:59

As PPs have said… the legal right to dependent leave is unpaid leave, to arrange childcare, in an emergency.

Technically it doesn’t cover situations you have prior knowledge of, or to do the care yourself - you’re expected to use annual leave for that.

That aside, it’s a really crap employer to dispute it. Everywhere I have worked we have been offered paid or unpaid leave (or WFH) if it involves having to look after our children.

whataboutsecondbreakfast · 01/02/2023 18:03

Mumheadflop · 01/02/2023 17:46

A legal advisor told me a couple of years ago that there was a case where a tribunal ruled that a mum did have the right to emergency time off for dependents when she knew in advance that child care was needed but had no other options for child care. That suggests that maybe for some people today could genuinely have been time off for an emergency, even though they had notice.

That may be - but OP's DH just stayed off work without telling anyone.

Thatshipsailed · 01/02/2023 18:06

I assume they'd argue that you'd had plenty of time to make other arrangements eg pay for childcare

my work occasionally use this line.

What is this miracle childcare you can pay for it you have advance knowledge?

There are no day clubs open on a random Wednesday? You can’t hire a childminder for the day? It’s just not an option.