So angry at all these threads on useless and selfish men

[Winterday1991]

Off the back of the thread where the H refuses to care for his sick child so the OP can get some much needed rest as he is on annual leave from work 😡. I am seriously fed up of reading threads like this, why are so many men so selfish?

Why is it always women who have to do the lions share of caring, pulling themselves in all direction whilst their male counterparts glide through life uninterrupted? Why is it always women who carry the mental load for family life and the men just show up. Why is always women responsible for maintaining the household?

Even in the 21st century, why do so many men get such a bloody easy ride, whilst often their poor wives/partners are running around like headless chickens keeping on top of everything.

I absolutely agree about the sexist attitudes. Which is why I waited a long time and was very careful to marry a man who exhibited no such beliefs or behaviour, treated me with respect, always did his fair share.

My point is that the problem as you allude to is structural in that it lets men get away with even considering behaving like this as an option. If proper CMS rates equating to 50% of the cost of raising a child were enforced (with criminal charges and imprisonment for non payment as for taxes), that would be a large deterrent. If others shunned men who walked out on their children, that would be a deterrent. Meanwhile we could have some respect for the single parents - almost all women - who are the responsible parents and stop blaming them, and amend the tax system so that they are not charge more than a dual parent household with the same income.

My objection has been to the comments about how this must be largely women's fault. Obviously some people will make poor choices but I'm yet to see anybody post any statistical evidence proving that this is the norm.

It’s a million times better to be a single parent than it is to carry the weight of a useless partner.

Of course it is.

But that doesn't mean that the women in those situations should be disadvantaged as they are now. They should get more Government help towards childcare than a two parent household. They should not be being taxed more than a two parent household with the same income. They should be receiving much higher rates of CMS that are properly enforced. And they should not be having to put up with ignorant people blaming them for men's behaviour. Single mothers do an incredibly hard job and should be respected by society.

I personally don't think your situation is the same though? I think it's more about women who KNOWS for a fact that their man ain't shit and STILL lie on their backs and procreate with them and then complain that their man ain't shit.

Your situation was/is quite unfortunate (you are not to blame) but there are many out there that saw warning signs and massive red flags before and during and decides to go ahead and stay.

To quote my post from earlier that you responded with the 10% statistic
”I do basically no housework, except laundry, which is almost exclusively my role”
im not sure what about that made you think my partner only did 10% of the housework?

The mental load doesn’t involve housework, in my opinion. The mental load is the unseen stuff. It’s the bit that is normally tagged onto housework, that happens without the other people in the house realising it happens.

Instead, we consider it as a task. We both spend roughly the same amount of time doing “our duties” - for him, it’s the physical, seen stuff like hoovering, dusting, washing the floors, cleaning the toilet. For me, it’s writing down everything that everyone does on the calendar, booking appointments, laying out the “correct” school uniform/bag for dd depending on what she has on at school that day (eg gym kit, waterproofs for forest school, packing a packed lunch on a Tuesday because she doesn’t like the lunch options that she isn’t allergic to) remembering what day and time all her extra curricular/tutoring etc is, organising childcare for days we both work (which means tying our calendars up with those of grandparents, then calling round to see who’s available) and keeping track of what food we have, making meal plans, and making shopping lists of what we need, and so on.

The work load is different, but equal. And that’s okay.

I'm always bemused by the way single mothers are blamed because they "lay back" and let some feckless man "procreate" with them. It's funny, why is it that no one blames the feckless man for not thinking about birth control and instead going ahead and procreating when he has no intention of stepping up as a father.

And ultimately, at the end of the day, we can say NAMALT but while I do know a number of separated couples who co-parent amicably etc, and I know 2 men who are single parents because their partners' died, I don't know a single family where post separation the man is the primary caregiver and the woman drops ni and out as she feels like. I know lots of families where the woman is the main caregiver and the man is useless however. That's not to say it's ALWAYS true, but the reality is that statistically, if a parent is going to largely walk way, be shit about financial, emotional and practical responsibilities.... it's far more likely to be the man. So let's lay the blame where it needs to be.... with the man.

I personally don't think your situation is the same though? I think it's more about women who KNOWS for a fact that their man ain't shit and STILL lie on their backs and procreate with them and then complain that their man ain't shit.

Your situation was/is quite unfortunate (you are not to blame) but there are many out there that saw warning signs and massive red flags before and during and decides to go ahead and stay.

I'm sure there are some people who did that. But the way people speak about single mothers including many on this thread implies that this is the norm. My point is that many single mothers are not in that situation because of poor choices. They are in that situation because of unforeseeable, disgusting behaviour by men.

I've seen no evidence posted here to back up the common assumption that many/ most single mothers are in that position due to poor choices i.e. a rational person could have avoided or foreseen the man's later behaviour towards her or the children. In fact, it is well documented in peer reviewed research that abusive behaviour from men frequently begins when they have had children, not before.

Do you have any such evidence? Or is the viewpoint that women are generally partially culpable because they have had children with men who have shown themselves to be useless before the children exist based simply on the scewed sample of posts you see on the internet, or anecdata from your own life?

I ask because I've seen no proper evidence myself to support that viewpoint. If it exists, I'm happy to be corrected that my situation is unusual and most single mothers have willingly decided to have children with men who had already shown themselves to be incapable of being decent fathers/ husbands. But it seems to me to be rather irrational that most posters on this thread seem to hold this view without presenting any statistical evidence to show that it is in fact the case.

@WineDup

Bevaude you listed lots of things you do other than laundry.

We obviously view the mental load differently

@NocturnalClocks

There's lots of research and data that shows women do the vast majority of work.

They do most of the house work, parenting and work too.

Are you honestly saying you think the vast majority of women were tricked into this by men who pretended to be great until kids arrived? And then left?

What about those who have multiple kids? Who are still in these relationships?

The op wasn't about women who had been walked out on. It was about women complaining about current ohs

I do find it hard to understand why some women put up with this, but I know a lot of lazy, bone idle women too who think men should take care of everything. I think we just hear more about men on here.

The best thing we can do is not let our sons treat us like shit and see that their fathers need to be involved as much as us (although sometimes that is futile). I will be teaching my son to look after himself and do his laundry and some cooking while at srcondary school like I had to when I was a kid and my mum was working.

MsMarch

I know someone who always rants about single mothers and benefits, yet doesn't mention the feckless father who is absent, claims benefits himself and contributes nothing to the child. I find that really odd, but we have been force fed these odd stereotypes by the media and some people are thick enough to believe them.

Again though, the amount of housework/ mental load that exists massively increases only once people have had children. There is very little to do in that respect prior to children, other than basic care of your home as an adult and feeding yourself, so that's a very low bar. Therefore a man being lazy and selfish in that respect probably wouldn't become apparent until after children were born, unless the woman had incredibly low expectations and was acting as his house servant even before having children. Which I'm sure must still happen in rare cases but seems unlikely to be very common these days now that women are generally raised to have a little more self-respect.

We must. Neither of us feel we are hard done by at the moment and we both feel like the division of labour is “fair” - which is the main issue, really. We would BOTH end up doing more of the shit we hate (me housework, him planning/prep) if we were to split. IMO, that is what makes a partnership work.

In the past, there has been times when we have felt like things aren’t equal - for example, when DF was a SAHD, I worked FT, and DD was not yet in nursery, the plan was that he was predominantly responsible for raising her during the day, and housework was 50:50. Then , she started nursery for 5 hours per day, and for the first few weeks things remained 50:50, until I got resentful that he got 5 hours “free time” during the day, whereas I was coming home from work and still doing half of everything. So we agreed that for those 5 hours of “free” time, he should do housework - at that time, he also did the “mental load” stuff because it was far easier with a preschool kid.

Ite not always plain sailing, but if you are willing to make division of labour your line in the sand then so be it.

I think the reason people are bringing this up as there was a woman a few pages back who said that their partner doesn’t do anything and she should probably leave him but she wants to have kids so she’s willing to put up with it 😬😬😬

@NocturnalClocks

I'm happy to be corrected that my situation is unusual and most single mothers have willingly decided to have children with men who had already shown themselves to be incapable of being decent fathers/ husbands.

It's not just being "incapable of being decent fathers/ husbands" - there are lots of "signs" in other areas of life, lots of "clues" as to the true character of someone.

Such as whether they're aggressive/argumentative/insulting when they've had a few drinks.

Whether they have honesty/integrity in other ways - do they lie a lot about insignificant things, if so, they'll probably lie about bigger things too!

Before getting in too deep with someone, you really need to look at the whole character/picture of them. Not just specific aspects.

I remember my 21st birthday when all our office went to the pub at lunchtime. One of the typists brought her boyfriend, he bought me a drink and I already had one on the go, so left it on the table. An older co-worker (50+) mistakenly picked it up (it was a crowded table), and this girls' boyfriend went ballistic at him - really aggressively shouting, abusive, even threatening to punch him! We were all aghast, but he just sat down and carried on as if nothing had happened. She married him, had 2 kids by him, and of course, divorced him as he apparently started beating her up and hitting the kids etc. Sad, of course, but the signs were there - we could all see he had a temper over literally nothing!

My sister is also a good example! Her boyfriend was dishonest in everything he did - he was self employed and didn't declare his true income (flag 1), he never bothered taxing his van (flag 2), he'd often "forget" dates with her (flag 3), he was a typical "boy-racer" with his flash car, parked where he liked, ignored speed limits (flag 4), and so it went on. He was basically your stereotypical "bad boy". But for some unfathomable reason, sister thought he'd change when they got married, he didn't, then she thought he'd change when they had children, he didn't. Eventually she left and divorced him, but now whinges that he doesn't pay the correct child maintenance because he doesn't declare all his income! Duh! She didn't mind when he was a tax evader during dating, didn't mind the extra income when buying a house and living with him due to him not paying tax, but suddenly doesn't like his dishonesty when she's the loser and she'd not getting the maintenance she "deserves" based on his "true" income!

I think it needs to start long before secondary school. I have the same expectation for both of my children (one of each sex). They have been expected to help with "tidy up time" since they were around 2. Now at 5 and 6 they put their dishes in the dishwasher, fold their own clothes to put them away, make their own beds, help with cooking. Children actually love helping with household tasks. Granted lots of these things actually take longer with them "helping" 😆 but it's so important to learn from a young age that this is simply what you do and it has nothing to do with whether you have a penis.

In corporate life, mental load is well paid, and considered as the profits of the enterprise.
In corporate life, blue collar work is less well paid, and treated as an operating cost.

In home life, blue collar work is recognised, and although it is not (normally) paid it has an easily understood value based on the costs of buying in related services.
In home life, mental load is barely ever recognised, let alone paid. There is no financial 'profit' from raising children. However, the evolutionary, emotional and psychological benefits are enormous.

A strategy that maximises overall pay is not the same as a strategy that divides the mental load and blue collar work equally.
Additionally, in many many couples neither partner has the capability to earn the top white-collar salaries.
But whilst the chores can be quantified, the "mental load" that is being talked about on these threads doesn't have any objective, measurable, criteria and that work cannot ever be efficiently allocated to someone else or satisfactorily compensated.
So there will always be, regardless of single/couple status or the sex of the parties, a deficit between the total pay and the total work within the home.

The only variable within anyone's control is whether they are able to accept that and be content, or whether they rail against it. The former are happy. The latter, not so much, it seems.

@NocturnalClocks

I disagree

Saying women don't notice until after kids cause there's not much work pre kids is a cop out.

It also doesn't explain why they tolerate it post first kid and go on to have more

Okay, but again this is anecdata. What I'm asking is whether anybody implying here that such anecdata is representative of the norm, statistically, has any evidence for that.

As I said, my ex-husband exhibited no such behaviour. I would not have tolerated anything like that and certainly wouldn't have married him or had children with him if he had. I'm sure I'm not alone in having high standards and also being a single parent. So rather than making generalisations about it, does anybody have any data to show what the proportions are? I suspect not. Which means the generalisations are unfounded.

Well, I can only answer personally but my children are very close in age (as we had deliberately planned together) and the horrific behaviour didn't manifest until after the second was born. She was 4 months old when her father left. Her brother was 1.

@NocturnalClocks

Ive already said that the data backs up that women do most of the work

Do you think the data is wrong?

It's far more likely to be that your situation is an anomoly than the other way round.

I think the reason people are bringing this up as there was a woman a few pages back who said that their partner doesn’t do anything and she should probably leave him but she wants to have kids so she’s willing to put up with it 😬😬😬

Obviously I agree that that is bonkers and also extremely unfair on the potential child.

@Mark19735

So there will always be, regardless of single/couple status or the sex of the parties, a deficit between the total pay and the total work within the home.
The only variable within anyone's control is whether they are able to accept that and be content, or whether they rail against it. The former are happy. The latter, not so much, it seems.

I agree with that conclusion. There'll never be true "equality" of work/effort in any relationship because partners will be doing different "day jobs" - very unlikely they'll have the same physical/mental "load", working hours, etc outside the home, so it's not really feasible to expect a true 50:50 share of home chores/obligations either.

What IS needed is honest discussions BEFORE living together, marrying, having children, etc., so that both parties understand and agree to the new "normal". If they can't agree, then you don't move forward!

You can't just ASSUME that the other party is on your wavelength - it needs proper discussion and agreement. If the other partner can't do that, then it's time to walk away BEFORE you get in deeper!

I cringe when I say posts on here about people moving in together or getting married or having children, and only AFTER they've done it, they start asking about whether to have a joint bank account, what's a fair share of relative earnings to put into joint spending/joint saving, etc? Why on Earth didn't they have that discussion beforehand?

But your situation is anecdotal too, isn't it?

Yes there is data that women do more housework etc, I've said that too.

My point is that many, many posts here blame women for that situation and state that if they'd been more rational and married decent men this would not be the case. That it has nothing to do with luck. That those posters are not in that situation themselves because they were far more sensible and made sure they married decent men, who pulled their weight and showed similar values, and they set clear expectations etc and agreed these in advance regarding how family life and responsibilities would be split.

As I've explained you can do all of those things and still end up with a husband who after having children changes and refuses to do their share and/ or leaves entirely. So in some cases, clearly it is about luck.

And there seems to be no data to show in what proportion of cases where this happens there were signs beforehand that the father would behave in this way. And therefore generalisations blaming women for having children with men who later behave in such away are unjustifiable.

Obviously there are specific cases where it was unwise to have children with a man who had shown already that he is selfish, unreliable, lazy or abusive prior to having children with him. But there is no reason to assume this is the case for the majority of people who find themselves in this situation, in the absence of data. In fact there are studies that show that many men start being abusive after children arrive.

But your situation is anecdotal too, isn't it?

Yes, hence me asking for data to back up other posters' generalisations, and stating in my earlier posts that I'm happy to be corrected (if such data exists) that my situation is an anomaly. But without such data I think the vilification of single mothers and blaming of women in general for their situations is not justifiable, as the proportion who fit such generalisations may be far lower than many posters here suppose.