Teachers - well paid, long holidays, gold-plated pension

[noblegiraffe]

I keep seeing this being trotted out as a reason to give teachers yet another real-terms pay cut.

Those who are going on about how great teachers have it, why have we got so many vacancies? Why is there such a shortage of teachers? It is really starting to bite in schools. My school has increased class sizes in maths and English, there are kids who have had a series of different supply teachers in core subjects since September, and A-level students who have had to teach themselves the syllabus in Y13 because they had no teacher at all. GCSE students have complained about their teacher not knowing what they are teaching because they've been roped in from another subject. We used to try to protect exam classes, but can't anymore.

Teaching vacancies are up. But the worst thing is that teacher trainees numbers have plummeted. The government has missed its recruitment targets for years, but the situation is getting much worse. Teacher recruitment for next year where schools generally compete for local trainees, which usually starts about now, will be really difficult and there will be lots more schools with unfilled spaces in September. Maths trainee numbers where I am are genuinely horrifying.

So, given the assertion that the private sector (the "real world") has it much worse and that teachers have a pretty cushy job with lots of perks, why isn't the private sector seeing a mass exodus into teaching?

Is it maybe not that cushy after all? Maybe the government actually needs to do something about it? Maybe those who think that a 5% rise is 'fair' need to have a rethink if they want their kids to actually have a teacher?

getintoteaching.education.gov.uk

Nope.

Supply teachers cost more.

They take more money from the budget (which has been cut in real terms for 12 years) which takes more money from the children's education.

I’m prepared that this will be unpopular, but I don’t think there’s a massive issue with pay etc. and similar level jobs in the private sector come with the equivalent unpaid overtime and shitty bosses (probably not any equivalent of the pupils though, but that’s what makes teaching what it is).

I think there’s a significant problem with accessibility - no one can realistically career shift into it due to the qualifications needed and the time/cost to do that. You’re piling more debt onto graduates so they can train, when instead they could be out getting a good salary elsewhere. Scrap training course fees (or write off if they stay in teaching) and pay any work placements properly and I think the number of teaching hopefuls would increase.

Similar view on nursing/doctors in training - pay them properly to allow them to train!

Conversely, if teaching is such a relentlessly bleak hellscape then why don't you just leave? I've had some awful jobs, I quit them. No one has a gun to your head. Using children to further line their own pockets is appalling behaviour. Don't pretend any of this is about the children, we keep being told over and over again this is not a vocation, just a job. This is about holding our children to ransom while you try and squeeze money out of a tanked economy, where companies in the private sector are crumbling left, right and centre.

Those are the children that the teacher has been caring for, day in day out. In some classes there will be half a dozen children who don't know where the next meal is coming from, who have an addicted parent, who have a carers duties, who are in a foster home. The teacher will calm them when they are angry, separate them when they hurt each other, comfort them when they are scared, coordinate with others to make sure they are fed and to try to get them the support they desperately need, every single day. It's mentally, physically and emotionally exhausting. And on top of that the teacher has to teach. Has to badger, praise, encourage and cajole 30 children for 6h a day, trying to get them to understand an extremely challenging curriculum and conform to narrow targets. Unless you have sat with a child who has a parent in prison, an addicted mother, no food in the house and shoes that don't fit and looked at the hurt and shame and confusion in their eyes while their classmates talk about improper fractions, I can promise you you have no idea what you are talking about.

Teachers have my undying respect. They not only educate our children but they have to deal daily with the results of truly awful parenting on the part of a fair proportion of the population. They are mentors, social workers, police, trusted advisors (and friends).

They work ridiculous hours, have to put up with incompetent education secretaries who cannot resist interfering, manipulative parents and a good proportion of truly unpleasant children.

I don't think I could do their job.

@Oysterbabe but many teachers ARE leaving, and some children don't have teachers. A class in a school near me is currently being taught by a TA as they couldn't recruit a teacher. How is that right? Does that not worry you? What about kids teaching themselves A level courses as the school has no teacher to teach them? This is the reality of teachers leaving. Does that not concern you?

How depressing it is to see that the same sort of 'singers' pervade this forum as they did the now-defunct TES one. 🙄

I have some questions:

• why do you need to do so much planning? Say you teach year 3… isn’t it the same stuff you did the year before? Sure some lessons would be updated etc but surely “great fire of london” lessons for example are gonna need the same resources and planning as the year before
• why can’t you use the holidays to do any additional planning? Gathering worksheets etc.
• can’t schools make a new role that assists with the admin? I get that teaching assistants are dealing with pupils that need help. Would teachers love someone in background to assist with admin? I’d bloody love that job!
• why aren’t the hours 3-5 used for marking ? There is no need to have meetings every night.

The most ignorant comment I have seen on Mumsnet in 15 years. Talk about plumbing the depths ! 🙄

There was a scheme in the NE of Scotland to retrain oil workers to be teachers. Big incentives for the training year. Of the 30 or so who applied maybe 7 were left after the teacher trading year and of those 3 finished their probation year and 1 still teaches. Most of those on the scheme said similar things - the money was poor for the qualifications you needed and the crap you had to put up with. Being told to fuck off, or much worse, being threatened and/or assaulted and the child reappearing in your class the next day. You can’t refuse to teach a pupil. There was no support or poor support for behaviour and learning needs. You could have a class of 33 with everything from asd to adhd to learning difficulties to non-English speaking and you might, if you’re lucky, have a support teacher in with you occasionally. There was no budget for resources, equipment was outdated and the hours required to properly plan and mark were insane. Behaviour management options were limited (restorative conversation after a kid throws a chair at you??)

This is why there’s a retention crisis. It’s a shit job where the general public expects miracles but thinks you’re a work shy layabout. And you need a degree and postgrad to do it.

Hmm. Forgive me if I'm credulous about your post, but considering 25% of troops to teacher's candidates couldn't hack the course and we didn't reach triple figures for ones actually getting a job, it seems unlikely that you'd know such a high percentage of them. All at a cost of £60000 per trainee.

Conversely, if teaching is such a relentlessly bleak hellscape then why don't you just leave?

Brilliant. Have you read the OP?

I think the state of schools in this country is shocking. It's almost like the government want a large part of the population to be illiterate.

I truly believe they do, Yivamoon - they don't want an electorate that can think and reason. They want a thick-as-mince population who will be crushed down to work for slave wages at mind-destroying jobs, then go home, eat crap food, live in crap homes, watch mindless telly and die early make room for the next generation of serfs.

Too many rich people and getting richer and don't give a damn about the suffering of people who are struggling.

Look at parliament yesterday - a Labour MP expressed concern about the abduction and trafficking of immigrant children - the response of one Tory was "They shouldn't be here illegally". Children - forced into prostitution and god -knows-what - and they blame those innocents for what is happening to them. And Braverman sat there with her arms folded and said nothing.

We are rapidly becoming a society of very, very wealthy and very very poor - and the poor will be subjected a brutal and violent criminal class while the rich will be protected against everything,

If these schools can’t recruit teachers, why aren’t they paying more?

They could offer TLRs for the right candidates or R & R allowances or other incentives.

If the answer is ‘because they can’t afford it’ then is that magically going to change if the strikes succeed?

I’d love to hear what the ‘real jobs’ the private sector keyboard warriors on this thread do. Want to swap for my ‘endless perks’?

It baffles me that swathes of people in this country don’t recognise that putting money into early years and education will pay off in the future. Like investing in public health to save future money for the NHS. I just don’t understand how some people can think that TEACHERS have children held ‘to ransom’ (🤣 by the way, fuck off, @Oysterbabe ) ranting and raving that schools shouldn’t be fully funded because THEY, poor private sector employees with no union, don’t also get the same??? Unionise then! Christ on a cracker, divide and rule really does work, doesn’t it?

What a horrible comment. Absolutely no basis for this.

Some of these provocative comments come straight out of the Daily Mail.

I’m a teacher of 25 years, I’ve lost my fight. My union didn’t even return enough votes for Strike action. If parents aren’t that bothered about the lack of qualified teaching that’s their problem. If parents want to ring up and shout because their child has got a detention, I’m just going to put the phone down. If Ofsted come and rip our amazing school to shreds, I’ll pay lip service to any bullshit that comes of it. I’ll be there for the kids emotionally as I feel more like a Social Worker these days anyway.

Let the whole system implode, like the NHS, lots of people don’t care about kids and education anyway.

It's a.weird situation I have a freind ta and family a teacher. The job really is incredibly intense and based on relationships so the break's really are essential to give pupil's and staff a time away from each other to refresh and reset.
However the ta is very intelligent and qualified and yet is never asked for their credentials as it were she has. Specialist qualifications in maths and Sen but no one wants to know at the school or uses that.
She says she has skills that could help some DC but she's not allowed to use them?
The head is awful and she feels demoralised.

The teacher faces a similar issue, a different head is against Sen and she has a dx with dyslexia but she is not allowed to veer even slightly off the path to try other reading strategies. She said the school doesn't understand how ehcp works and again she feels helpless and demoralised because she could do more to assist some pupils at no issues for anyone but she dare not. She said her head is a dinosaur with rigid views and highly politicised and she hates work.

I think some cultures like this need to change I really do.

All those people with a ‘proper job’, would you be able to stand in front of 30 people with differing personalities and give training 6 hours 5 days a week with no break? You’d have a couple of drunk ones, a bunch of unruly ones and a few well behaved. Then prep for the training in your ‘spare’ time, fill in a whole bunch of forms on a daily basis, attend staff meetings and mark their work. Day in. Day out.

I'd love to become a teacher. I am a HLTA and love taking classes etc. Done it for 15 years since leaving university.

I'd LOVE to get further qualifications but I can't afford to fund myself at University again. I have a degree in computing.

I'd love to do computer club, teach IT and STEM etc.

I think a lot of this comes down to badly managed schools. And pressure from above. I've heard of some nightmare leadership...

The moment you step into an "amazing" school the paperwork is a joke. I had an interview once and it was an immediate NOPE from me.

Ours is staying open during the strikes.

Tell me you’re a tory without telling me you’re a tory.

It's easier than the army...

Marvellous recommendation... not.

You know you can get counseling to help you deal with your negative memories of school?