I’ve got no chance against the other side’s Solicitor have I?

[Watchingthetiderollaway]

Sorry not an AIBU, but wanted to post here for hopefully extra responses.

I appealed against a child maintenance decision and a Tribunal hearing has been arranged for just over 3 weeks time. I only found out last week that my ex has got himself a Solicitor, and now I feel defeated already as she’s clearly going to know every legal loophole there is in order to help him win the case.
I can’t afford legal representation and I’m feeling so pissed off that my ex can make out he’s broke to the cms but then be able to afford a Solicitor.

The only way I found out he has a Solicitor is because she contacted me asking me to send her all paperwork that I’m hoping to rely on in the hearing. Has anyone else been in a similar position?

I took my child's school to a disability discrimination tribunal a couple of years ago, and I self represented.

The school had a solicitor probably paid for with the funding they weren't spending on my child and he was absolutely fucking useless. He made a legal error that nearly lost them the case a week before the hearing, and then he just didn't know the details or the law when it actually came to the hearing itself. It was actually unbelievable how bad he was.

The chair and the panel were extremely fair and made sure everything ran properly, so don't worry too much. It feels like you're at a disadvantage but actually, you know the case inside out and the solicitor knows the bare minimum!

Surely all the evidence you have sent to the tribunal/cms is already in the appeal papers. You shouldn't have to send anything directly to his solicitor. If you take anything to the tribunal it will be copied to all parties to look at. If it's too much for them to consider on they day they will likely adjourn so best to send in to the tribunal now.

OP you've had some excellent advice on here already.

1. the case is with the tribunal. All papers should from both sides should be with them in advance (usually 14 days) before the hearing. Late evidence will be accepted in advance of hearing but only if it gives both sides chance to review. I've been in hearings where solicitors provide evidence 5 minutes before and Judges either recess to allow panel to review or adjourn. Either way, it is not looked upon favourably.
2. send her nothing. It's under the jurisdiction of the tribunal now. If your ex's solicitors want paperwork, she can go through the tribunal. You should not be contacted-it's massively inappropriate. You're not her employee ffs.
3. Solicitors do not get an easy ride in tribunals. Panels will often ask questions over them that you know they'd never (or at least phrase differently) ask an unrepresented appellant.
4. tribunals are designed so that you don't need representation. I didnt do CSA ones but in the ones i did do, it usually goes: opening by panel, explanation of current position, complainant position, questions to conplainant, Respondent position, questions to Respondent. Closing submissions by both. Someone with specific knowledge of these types of tribunals may be able to advise on specifics, but I'd say it's good to have a bullet pointed list of your key points, alongside the references to corresponding evidence. Remember it's judged on evidence and balance of probability. You don't need to prove everything,it just needs to be proven that it's more likely than not. Best of luck.

He should be supplying his tax returns for the years prior to your split. I'd expect these to show low salary but dividend payments.

Look at his parents company accounts on companies House. If they are making decent revenue and profit.

Check what company directors earn in your area. You can argue that if his family are not for some reason paying him right now he has earning capacity to support his children but instead is supporting his family. That will pay off for him in the future if he should inherit.

Ask for a history of dividend payments from before you split. He should be paid a consistent amount but if its dropped then it will be telling.

The pension point is s good call but don't put it past his family to skip this too. They can always top up later.

If divided goes down, everyone else stays the same and profit goes up then you have a pattern that shows he is doing down his income to stiff his own dc.

@Watchingthetiderollaway theres a person on tiktok called the legal queen she does lives most evenings where she answers family law questions! Might be worth having a look and asking any questions you might have to her as she’s qualified and has her own law firm. Good luck!

I represented myself during a court battle with my ex over custody of the children. Each time we went to court I wrote a letter to the judge explaining my side of the story and pointing out the flaws in her side of the argument. I got to court an hour before the hearing and asked an usher to give my letter to the judge. When we went into the court the judge knew all the facts and could ask me questions directly. As she had representation she couldn't speak in the court, only her solicitor could. Her solicitor didn't know as much about our children and what my ex had done as I did so I had an advantage. Her solicitor complained each time about being 'ambushed' by me, but I just acted dumb and said I thought the judge needed to know, so that's who I'd written to.

The outcome was good for me and the children. I probably saved myself thousands in legal fees and had a better result.

Send nothing to the other side. Represent yourself. If you have a solicitor it must be very frustrating to have to spectate while strangers decide what is best for your family.

I would ask his solicitor to send to you any evidence they intend to rely on. I certainly wouldn't be sending a new y evidence I have to them without their own evidence. Also if you have to send your evidence ahead to the tribunal be will his solicitor be able to have sight of this. If they can request your evidence from the tribunal ahead of the case make sure you request theirs. I have no idea though if they could get sight of your evidence this way 🤔

I helped my disabled, unable to work friend with her divorce and an exh who despite her name being jointly on everything apart from his cash only business and him paying off their mortgage. He was going to be the one owning the family home as he has paid for it.
He too was declaring earnings well below his expenses

I learned so much about divorce law. Friend kept the marital home and an amount of money which in total equalled 60% of the marital pot

I would try to get the court date adjourned Even if you can’t I would start reading now about what the law states around whatever he is trying to claim.
Even take a day or 2 off work so you can spend the day preparing.

Read up on court cases with similar claims

I would ask for company accounts (you can get online previous years accounts through HMRC website and him to provide a year/6 months if his personal bank statements and list of expenses and evidence of how they are being paid. If he is claiming that he has only a small income then he needs to show it and how he is spending his money,

If his family are “loaning” him money i.e the amounts are transferred to his account with the word Loan in the reference or are they just transferring him money where there is no expectation of repayments

Remember op the law is there to read. The only difference between you and the solicitor is they know every aspect of particular laws off the top of their head
You have to find them, read them and understand the different interpretations and make a note of them for reference

My friend ended up fighting SS to keep her children and by the time it got to family court she knew more about the laws involving SS than any SW or their solicitor.

Dont be afraid, Read carefully what your ex is asking. And read the laws and cases surrounding that type of claim. Including the claims that failed and why

You can do it.

The court has to make allowances for you as a litigant in person, including explaining your rights to you.

However, I wonder if you could afford some legal advice on this - maybe not for the hearing, but at least some advice on your case so you can feel better prepared?

@Kennykenkencat there is some great advice here. Can HMRC really provide accounts for a company?? I may need to go to tribunal for similar reasons. I can see ex’s very healthy accounts on Company House.

I went to tribunal last year. Over video call due to covid. The judge will go through and read everything before you start. My ex and I both received packs containing all evidence from each side with each page numbered. Do you have that? He should be providing it to his solicitor himself

In a court, in front of lawyers… a judge said to your ex “I’ll sign whatever you put in front of me”?

Agree. This is excellent advice. It is very important to highlight to the judge you are at significant disadvantage by not having transparency. Either make an application or ask the judge to order him to do so.

Have you been on Companies House to get his accounts? Is he a contractor of some sort? If so, also request info on his daily rate. Email solicitor and request this info.

my understanding is that his solicitor needs to provide this to OP also as she is a LIP. I’ll find the link from the Court website - there are some rules surrounding this.

Yes, this is true too. The Ex's solicitor has special obligations in respect of sharing evidence with OP as a litigant in person.

As a director of a family business, especially if the family are on his side, he may very well be able to hide his earnings unfortunately.

I am an accountant and many of our clients are similar companies and, for tax purposes, they earn a small salary and the remainder of their earnings as dividends. Both of these are used to determine maintenance payments, but if he were to transfer his shares to another family member who then just "lends" him money, it would, as far as his reported earnings are concerned, show that he didn't earn much.

To do that though, the other family member(s) lending him the money would have a much bigger tax bill themselves, so they would really, really have to want to screw you over to go along with it.

Legally speaking though, I have no idea what a court could do in this instance.

I wish you luck OP. Shame he doesn't put as much effort in to his own children as he does in to screwing you over.

I was represented at Family Court and my rep ensured he dealt with my ex as well as me, I think the onus is on any solicitor/barrister etc to ensure the best outcome for the children, so although they are obviously hired by one party it isn't as straightforward as one vs the other.
Good luck, I hope you get on OK.

I think Kenny is confusing HMRC with Companies House. HMRC wouldn't get involved I don't think.

Companies House has the record of companies' accounts, but the information shown may be minimal if it is a "small" company. Small companies can have up to £10m turnover (among other thresholds), so it could actually be a very profitable, sizable business, but not have to disclose turnover or profits on public record.

What should be disclosed, however, is if there is a Director's loan outstanding at the end of a reporting period. I say should in italics, as unfortunately, there are many accountants who overlook this, or the company has prepared their own accounts without the knowledge that this is disclosable.

PP's comments of suggesting reviewing a number of years' tax returns prior to the breakup are very useful to show evidence of deliberately withholding information, though again I'm not sure how far the court can go. Accounts are my area of expertise, rather than family law, unfortunately!

Ex works for the family business as a Director, without going into detail, I believe he’s hiding his money in the business, aided by his family, and not declaring the correct earnings

op - I’m in the same situation. Can I ask how you intend to prove this? Feel free to pm me if you don’t want to post it. It’s been 2 years and I’m no further forward. Apparently he earns an utter pittance and can’t support himself... director of multi million pound family business.

Was ordered to disclose by court and has refused citing his employment contract requiring confidentiality! I’m so at the end of my rope and just want him to play fair for my kids.

The issue is @Thesenderofthiscard he’s not actually doing anything illegal. And although you know his intentions are malicious, if he’s not actually breaching any law - then he’s not actually hiding anything.
He has structured his business in such a way that unfortunately leaves you short, but from a legal standpoint - as long as the structure is legal, very very little can be done

Hmmm good point re confidentiality. I requested cunty ex provide his daily contracting rate and he cited commercial sensitivity. However, I can’t see why a judge cannot order full disclosure of dividends are being used to divert income. This is the whole point of applying for a variation and going to tribunal.

This was for @ForfuckssakeEXHstopbeingatwat

why? Because no matter what the dividends statement showed, as long as legal… there wouldn’t be any ramifications whatsoever on your ex. So the information is irrelevant to the judge I am afraid

I’ve just got back and read all of your posts thoroughly, I can’t reply to everyone as I’ll be busy doing my DC’s dinner soon, and then taking the dog out. What I want to say is thank you very much all of you for the advice, I feel more confident now that even if the Solicitor wipes the floor with me, I’m not going to go down without a fight so to speak.
I do have a couple of queries if anyone could help. Do you know if ex will be able to talk too, or would it just be the Solicitor who normally does?
As it’s a family run business, I want the judge to assume that ex’s family could be the ones who are receiving the dividends officially, and then passing them on to ex, but I can’t see a way to convince the judge that this is likely what is happening as I can’t really prove this.

Re a directors loan, I’m also a bit confused as to how this works?
thanks once again

Do you have experience of child maintenance tribunals? Has every judge in the land refused variations based on income diversion? I haven’t questioned its legitimacy.