To think political discussion does belong on Mumsnet

[HermioneWeasley]

At the protest for the Scottish gender reform bill last night. We silly women are only permitted to talk about prams and weaning don’t you know?

It is saying Keep Mums out of politics. You know - the ones who are usually very focused and concerned with safeguarding.......

Why do you have to be so defensive? As I said in my post, regardless of whether it’s one or a thousand comments, it clearly exists. And if I trawled through FWR, I’d find more. Never said it was “mean”, I said it was devaluing somebody. I acknowledged that most posters were supportive, and there needs to be an open dialogue about single sex spaces and women’s safety. But there’s no need to be dismissive of the horrifying experiences of trans people simply because they’re trans. Posters can voice their concerns without being vile. And there were more posts along the lines of “what did they expect” which whilst isn’t necessarily transphobic, is unnecessary.

if I trawled through FWR, I’d find more

Find them then. You haven't even cited the one you mentioned. If such a post was made on FWR, it would either be deleted or other posters would comment as to why they find framing of a serious matter in that way, the wrong thing to do.

@electricdreaming - you're misrepresenting based on a couple of posts by posters who have never posted before or since.

So I would call that rather disingenuous of you. Of course people are going to be defensive if you're extrapolating based on one thread.

And if I trawled through FWR, I’d find more.

There is no evidence for this statement.

Whether trans is politics or not, we can and should discuss it. I don't think any topic should be off limits. The idea that any topic should be taboo and #nodebate is just an outrageous attempt to silence people (women in this case, as in many cases) whilst 'claiming' some moral high ground.

It’s not being defensive but merely pointing out how the “both sides are toxic” party line that people state is disingenuous. On one side you’ve got women calling transwomen “he” and not expressing the expected womanly level of sympathy for elective surgery gone wrong and on the other side you’ve got trans activists proudly threatening death and pain on women who disagree with their gender ideology.

If any further evidence was needed that transwomen are most definitely male, then their attitude to women disagreeing with them is a perfect case study. Using anger and threats of violence are typically male responses. What’s the saying “men are scared of women laughing at them, women are scared of men killing them”

Well this is pretty disingenuous. Let's rephrase that slightly. Clearly from your post we're going to disagree that the prevailing view on Mumsnet is 'anti' trans. I don't believe it's anti trans at all but it is pro women and girls' rights. And let's say for argument's sake that Mumsnet is predominantly made up of women. So to rephrase your post, you're saying keep women's views about the trans issue out of political policy making. In other words, women, be quiet. Again, how convenient.

But there’s no need to be dismissive of the horrifying experiences of trans people
Please educate us. Can you give us examples of these "horrifying experiences" within the UK, especially those perpetrated by women. If you can only find examples by men then your beef is with them, not us.

So no such posts exist? Thought so 😂

It reminds me of the letter written by Amnesty Ireland, signed by Amnesty International and a number of other large organisations that called for political representation to be removed from people with the view that biological sex is real and sometimes important and that we should not have access to the public arena for our views.

This was in response to women in Ireland discovering the serious issues caused by self id laws quietly brought in with little public awareness. They started trying to discuss it and raise awareness of the issues but Amnesty (!) wanted to shut them down.

Why are they so determined to stop women speaking?

This. I am getting to the point where I’m embarrassed if people discover I post here now. They think the whole forum is like that

I am perplexed by the idea that anyone's friends would know or care what Mumsnet is, unless they are Mumsnet users themselves. I think people imagine that Mumsnet has a political clout that it really doesn't have (though that's quite funny in itself, as people being dicks is always quite funny).

I have been here for 20 odd years and I can categorically say that it only looks like a hotbed of anti-trans politics if you choose to seek out that side of it (I haven't, because the whole idea that men can choose to become "actual women" is so preposterous that it's beyond debate). Most people IRL don't actually give much of a shit about trans politics because in most people's real lives - as opposed to online echo chambers - men are men and women are women.

As I said in my post, regardless of whether it’s one or a thousand comments, it clearly exists

Anyone in the whole world with a computer can register and post anything.

You are saying a random poster who posted 'oh dear' is a reason for not having any women who believes in the existence of biological sex involved in politics.

And yet women who want you know, single sex spaces, get violently attacked, harrassed, doxxed, sacked, arrested and we are just supposed to seethe and cope?

(I haven't, because the whole idea that men can choose to become "actual women" is so preposterous that it's beyond debate).

But you know this is now the law?

In Canada they are taking away kids where the parent doesn't automatically affirm and start them on the road to blockers, hormones and ultimately removal of their genitals and breasts.

Is that you Owen? 🤔

I am getting to the point where I’m embarrassed if people discover I post here now.

I don't understand this either. How would anyone 'discover' you post on MN unless you tell them?

Also if you don't want to be posting on MN just ... stop. It's not a contracted position.

Mumsnet is a group of people discussing a broad range of topics, including the trans debate (because we all know it's one of the few places people can openly express their honest view on this point). Yes, there is a prevailing view on this subject. It's not anti trans though. Seriously whenever someone pops up saying this they're asked to back that assertion up - show us the posts which are anti trans. They never do. It's not anti trans, it's pro women and girls' sex-based rights. Most of us are open to rational conversations about how one group's rights intersect (and at points conflict) with another group's, but time and time again when we try and have this conversation on here people on the other side of the debate won't respond with any actual examples or debate, but just say 'it's anti trans'. And heaven forbid you try and have the conversation in any other forum as you'll get stronger than that in response, and have TERF and BIGOT screamed at you.

As a society we HAVE to be able to discuss this. That's how we evolve and hopefully progress. The fact that this debate has been so effectively shut down in so many public spheres has resulted in what many women would agree is a massive regression in women's sex-based rights.

The fact that there is a prevailing view in a particular direction on this specific issue should tell people something. Because this is a broad cross-section of women who hold this view, encompassing many people who are not given to bigoted or prejudiced views on other issues, so wouldn't it be strange that some many otherwise non-bigoted women have suddenly become massive bigots on one particular issue....or maybe just maybe it's because we all have a point....(pretty glaringly obvious if you ask me, still baffled how we've got to this point in society with so many people having drink the kool aid on this one but hey ho...).

@NowDoYouBelieveMe seriously, show me a post on here where someone says they want to deny trans people's right to exist.

when we try and have this conversation on here people on the other side of the debate won't respond with any actual examples or debate

They're not interested in debate though, that much is clear. They just want to silence any opposing view. By shaming, shouting down, smearing, guilting by association. Every trick in the book rather than address the goddamn points.

I believe we only need 'most marginalised' to get full house.

Haven't seen 'trans genocide' yet, obviously women talking about their rights is very dangerous indeed.

If there was a debate, then I'm sure someone could explain what a 'fake' transwoman is, and how we spot one to keep ourselves safe.

I'm sure they will all be along any minute now to help.

I hope MN are noting that their name is becoming synonymous with transphobic views.

If you think it's 'becoming' then you are really late to the party, we're on our way back now. MN has never been transphobic, the accusations have only ever been short hand for STFU, women are wise and indifferent to it now. Anyone making the accusation now has clearly not spent a single minute listening to women's voices and on that basis it's perfectly reasonable for me to ignore them.

Women's rights are not transphobic.

it's "keep Mumsnetters' anti-trans beliefs out of political policymaking".

///

But apparently it's hateful to say "keep biological males out of sex segregated spaces and sports"

This is NOT anti trans. This is pro women and kids.

anti-trans posters on here who want to deny their right to exist.

///

What does this hyper dramatic statement even mean? Other than not believing humans can change sex?

Owen Jones doesn't think women should speak about politics. However Posie Parker shows us exactly what is happening now and why women everywhere must speak up.
This is our new reality. If we do not take action, we will not have choices, we will not have safety and we will not be able to safeguard our children.

You are being disingenuous and you know you are.

Harry Potter books come to life in trans activists houses and they fly around giving them paper cuts and slamming shut on their girl dicks.

Literary violence.