AIBU to ask how we can become less individualistic

[DeidreData]

… as a whole society?

Not a TAT, but looking at increasingly (mardy, goady) tones online plus various threads on here at any given time, how do we make a change to stop thinking “as a wedding guest I can wear whatever the hell I like/as a homeowner I can do whatever I want in my garden/as a customer I can demand whatever I want in a shop/as a parent I can expect whatever I think is right from a school”?

I know that not all of these are exactly like the other, but what are practical things we can do to encourage a sense of us living in a society? That it’s a balance of not being doormats and understanding that we all experience moments of discomfort for the greater good?

Genuinely looking for ideas, because I’m sick of feeling hopeless about it. Thanks IA x

Okay I'm old but I whole heartedly agree with @OriGanOver we were brought up in a different world. Thatcher was awful, we fought, we rallied! We did our best,it's over you guys now.

It's a philosophical question, with two belief systems - individualist or collectivist.

from the Maggie Thatcher era of "there's no such thing as society", Harry Enfield's skit on "Loadsamoneyyyyy" and the Boris Johnson cop-out of wanting complete individual autonomy and lack of constraints, has indeed come the society we deserve, where everyone just thinks of their own needs and not collectively what is right for us as a nation.

Sorry, OP I don't have the answer on how to change the monster created by Capitalism. Every person for themselves. How to change the behaviour of 67 million people, in U.K. hmmm Then again, I wouldn't want the diametrically opposed philosophy of communism either!

The other book that might have the answer is "The Selfish Gene" - the idea that mankind is at its heart a selfish creature, nobody does anything that doesn't in some way benefit themselves.

The curtain twitchiness made it harder for eyelids to be unbatted and eyes to pretend to be closed. That was my experience.

Society has definitely got more individualistic since I was a child. I’m 32. The selfishness I see these days makes me despair. Seems like people don’t give a shit for anyone else at all anymore and it’s sad.

I think it’s the influence of 13 years of Tory politics plus social media.

This is a really interesting idea and one that comes up in the book I'm reading "Strange Rites". She talks about how the modern Spiritual But Not Religious is tied up in internet culture and consumer capitalism and the result is a generation with no religious beliefs that have any sort of formal framework but more a vague spiritual mixing and matching and placing the self or the "discovery of the true self" or "living authentically" as important above all else. It's an interesting shift as a lot of traditional religion values service very highly instead. I see A LOT of this on Instagram, especially among women, kind of obsessive introspection with no actual goals or outcome. I'm starting to think endlessly focusing on the self just causes you to disappear up your own hole.

This

That's true, many people seem to take pride in putting their own wants and needs above all else and not caring what people think of them. Usually until they face criticism for their actions, then they get all offended and pour out their heart on social media for the predictable 'you got this babe' validations.

I thought this myself today. I feel UK is particularly "individualistic" compared to other countries I've lived in. Mumsnet sometimes is particularly bad at bringing out the worst too it seems

The thing is, what is viewed as 'selfish' differs wildly person to person.

Some people would think it 'selfish' that someone was inappropriately dressed (I don't know, wearing red or something) at their wedding.

Others would find it selfish that someone else would demand they buy a new outfit.

Some people think grandparents not helping out is selfish.

Others would think offspring expecting grandparents to help out at their own expense is selfish.

Some people think that not helping your family out financially is selfish.

Others would find being expected to fund other people's lives selfish.

Often when people talk about more community based cultures they reference grandparents living with families even from a relatively young age and I think but what if you don't want that? You get called selfish. But it would ruin a lot of people's mental health to live so closely with their parents for so long. Plus there's plenty of cases where it creates enormous amounts of dependency which isn't healthy because what happens if the system gets disrupted for whatever reason?

Exactly this. It’s not so much about losing religion, maybe, as replacing it with something that’s 50% consumerism and 50% self-absorption. Lots of my friends (and I) have had these moments though and realised how boring life is just journalling, having hot baths and talking through childhood memories while surrounded by crystals and tarot cards (£29.98 on Etsy).

It feels like you’re liberating yourself to begin with, finding your individual precious path, but it’s like eating McDonalds: fine once, but not ultimately satisfying either that day or long term.

You’re right, there’s a lot of ambiguity in finding what’s “right” - again, is that where religion was useful? With either extremely specific guidelines about weights and measures and days of the week, or more broadly emphasising not putting your wishes first?

Maybe that’s where the confusion lies, that we no longer distinguish between want and need. We need good medical care, good education for all, fair access to justice and opportunity, freedom to vote and walk the street etc. We want to wear our favourite dress to the wedding, to not go to that boring family dinner, to opt out of volunteering for Brownies because we’re tired after work. (These are just examples, you don’t have to explain why you literally can’t do Brownies!)

Women deserve so much more respect, support and freedom than they currently have, but we’ve been convinced by capitalism that the answer lies in consuming and focusing on ourselves, rather than (as most of us don’t do - most not all, I know plenty of brilliant women do) campaigning for better rights for all women, legally and socially.

There’s loads of good in the world, but capitalism has done a good job of convincing us all that we need to focus only on handing over the cash in the name of looking after me me me (and possibly our children while still at home).

I am athiest i do not need religion to make me a decent person.
It is not a question of individuality to me.
Social media has made people far more entitled.
So has parenting/schooling.
People are told that they are special and can do anything they want.
They are not told to respect other individuals and that EVERYONE is the same.

So many people think that they are very important.

Yes, we don’t need religion to be a decent individual, but I’m wondering whether religion as a structure is good at just being a handbook of Acceptable Behaviours in a society where otherwise general good attitudes may not have been encouraged in a family/school/work place. If we don’t have eg. the Ten Commandments, is it easier for people to say, “No, this is fine”? Where do society-wide guidelines come from if everyone is following the religion of Self?

For me, individuality has slipped in its meaning over the last few years from “creative, personal, a single person’s unique feelings” to, as you say, “I’m special, I’m entitled, my wishes are the most important”. It’s not totalitarianism or extreme collectivism I’m suggesting, more about encouraging an increase in the good stuff the UK does, and a decrease in the more unhelpful (isolationism, seeing a divide rather than things in common, snarkiness on online threads, social media). But how do we encourage those things at a wider level, beyond just our individual small choices? (Still not espousing Big Brother territory here.)

Yes this! You think you're on your path to self enlightenment- nah it's self absorption!

This place is full of wilful misunderstanding.

Agree. I love Mumsnet but there's no denying that some posts are just downright rude and snarky. I don't necessarily think it's society in general - I think there's far too many keyboard warriors out there who feel they have licence to be obnoxious online.

I guess it's about taking responsibility for our actions.

A lot of it is things that just would not be acceptable to most on this forum.

Living with your parents. Having more of an obligation to your family. In turn they will help you.

Obviously I'll get a load of replies from people saying their parents did nothing for them, and they shouldn't have to feel any obligation towards them.

Its more about collective living. Caring for the kids together. Compromising on certain decisions. Working together and sometimes giving when you would rather not.

So we compromised on the school to send the kids. In this way they are going to the same school as their cousins. So we can help each other with drop off and pick up of needed.

All siblings worked very hard at school. Luckily got jobs that dont really tie us in to the city. But also compromising on pay and work conditions so we can still live in old home town. Means we live close by each other and can support each other.

Parents live with one of the siblings and we all help out.

So you think suggesting we should care more about others and about wider society = advocating a 1984-style approach? Blimey.

If housing costs were not as bad.

More people could stay closer to their roots.

But do people want to do that?

Would they rather get that high flying job in the city/ abroad?

This isolates people and their kids. How much of a relationship would your kids have with their extended family if you've moved abroad for a job?

Its little choices like this that affects ties between people.

I'm always shocked when I see threads on here about people who cant afford basic living costs.

If I was struggling I could ask my siblings. As a last resort any of my siblings would let me move in with them if needed. For me there is always at least 5- 10 different family members I can learn on for support if needed. And I would help my family members.

But so many that post on here just seem to have no one at all.

I always want to ask- what about your parents? What about your siblings? Aunts/ uncles? If you are older- kids?

There must be someone who can help?

But so many seem isolated for some reason.

My DC are at primary school and what I see children go through, over and over again, is they build up a secure little community and negotiate thenpecking order and friendships, yet then it gets ripped away and they have to start over. Whether it’s nursery/childminder to preschool, or preschool to junior school, or junior to secondary, or a house move or change of hobby, we rip away their communities, shrug and tell them to start again. Even while they’re at the same school, they get a new teacher once a year and class members frequently come and go.

Then off they go to university: start afresh alone again. Then start a job, change job, over and over again we go into situations alone, not as a stable group with a long supportive history.

Humans are tribal and this constant restarting alone does not suit us. So people turn online to find communities- to gaming, to facebook, to mumsnet. None of it is real.

So many of us turn inward and act selfishly, or lash out.

I've never thought much about that before, but I agree.

The problem is there aren't actually many people who think they are selfish. We all think we have the balance right. I consider myself a libertarian, so live and let live, but I have a social conscious too and stand up for what I think is right (but might not directly benefit me) and eg l volunteer. I do however put my happiness above others wishes eg I do as I please at Xmas and won't be bullied into attending events I don't want to. I don't really want to speak with my neighbours. I'm not generally rude but I think my right to privacy/silence trumps their wish for company. I'd clear their path of snow though.
I do of course think I have the balance right. Am I an individualist? Too much so?

This is pretty much my thoughts. I'm a believererv in reward rather than punishment. I do some prettyvnicevthings for others (even if I say so myself), giving time and effort and sometimes money.....however I'm not as susceptible to guilt as some so I won't be pressured into doing the 'right' thing. My 'giving' is free, there's no expectation of reward, it just feels right to me.
I'd say people are probably more giving AND more selfish than say 50 years ago.

No, I don't think that's what @XenoBitch means. I'd imagine that wad a response to the word 'individualism' which has since been redefined as this thread progressed.
So Communism would be the 'opposite' to individualism....hence the 1984 remark. That's how I'm reading it.

Is it a wealth thing?
The more wealthy and therefore self-sufficient/independent people become the less they seek to gain or offer support.

People with much less/no wealth are more likely to set up community support ventures such as community nurseries, community banks/credit unions, workers unions etc. generally much more altruistic.

Unfortunately this was eroded during the 'every man for himself' ethic of the 80's/90's but is perhaps creeping back since 2008, and definitely in last 5/6 years with homeless charities and food banks stretched to their absolute limits.

Adversity does seem to build community. The only constant community hubs which seem to survive political/economical peaks and troughs appear to be football clubs, pubs and volunteer-led youth organisations.

I agree that this constant moving around is a surefire way to desintegrate communities. I was moved from North to South at 8 and it was so disruptive to the social security I had built around myself with friends, neighbours, family that I would actually say it took me at least 10 years to get that security back again. I was socially lost and out of my depth in a brand new southern community that was very very different to my northern childhood.

For this reason I've kept my son in the exact same geographical area moving from nursery to infants to primary to secondary with the same social networks. I could have sent him 10 miles away to a slightly better secondary but community is very important to me, and a community is built from all sorts in order for it to work. I want my son to be socially secure, well grounded, well rooted, understanding of others in all their differences and similarities.