AIBU to ask how we can become less individualistic

[DeidreData]

… as a whole society?

Not a TAT, but looking at increasingly (mardy, goady) tones online plus various threads on here at any given time, how do we make a change to stop thinking “as a wedding guest I can wear whatever the hell I like/as a homeowner I can do whatever I want in my garden/as a customer I can demand whatever I want in a shop/as a parent I can expect whatever I think is right from a school”?

I know that not all of these are exactly like the other, but what are practical things we can do to encourage a sense of us living in a society? That it’s a balance of not being doormats and understanding that we all experience moments of discomfort for the greater good?

Genuinely looking for ideas, because I’m sick of feeling hopeless about it. Thanks IA x

Might I suggest this one ?

We (Amazon link)

Who's this 'we'?

Was that to me?

Yes, again, this is totally true, and I think as another thread was saying a lot of the stuff on here is anonymous posturing, saying things they would never say in “real life”. I do believe most people are basically good.

But also social media does exist, however much any of us can turn our backs on it, and as any teacher, shop assistant or health care worker could probably attest, behaviour is generally becoming more selfish. It doesn’t mean everyone is, or there haven’t been selfish people before, and it doesn’t mean no one is generous and kind, but there’s a tipping point where there are enough people focused on their own ego needs (which the internet, politics and culture encourages) for it to have a real tangible effect on everyone living around them.

Yes, totally true, but can we find a better middle ground here, do you think?

Try again:

@bluebeardswife7 Yes, totally true, but can we find a better middle ground here, do you think?

Every second person thinks its great to just ignore what other people think, dont care what people say or think about them, wants to just 'be their real self' etc etc

There is no concept of the effect of them on other people or how their wants and needs overriding everyone else, means that they are hostile and selfish.

Yes, this is very true - growing community but as you say, in the worst possible way. We have more than enough housing and food in this country (please correct me if I’m wrong), yet it’s owned so unequally that small communities have to band together just to avoid starvation. It’s madness.

Do we need to go through a period of those with enormous wealth creating social benefits for all, like the parks and housing and concert halls of the Victorians, on our way to better equality? Or is that an even worse idea?

It varies a lot within in the UK. I grew up in an area where everyone knew eveyone else. It was stifling, because everything I did got back to my mother, but also, if eg, I got caught out in the rain, someone would likely stop and offer me a lift in the direction of home.

I went on to live in a place where, after slipping on an icy pavement, everyone just continued to walk OVER me...

That’s awful! Yes, that’s not the kind of opposite you want; would you want to raise children now in your childhood area (if it still existed in the same way)? Or do you think that stifling quality overrides the benefits of all knowing and helping each other? Do you like the majority of your life to be a bit more anonymous?

I definitely used to, but am enjoying feeling like people know what others are doing these days (although I could see myself swinging back if it became too curtain-twitchy).

I think overall the benefits outweight the risks, but I definately would have liked to be able to express myself a bit more.

I think it's worth noting that there's an element of rose tinted glasses here - no harm came to me, but it would have been very easy for someone with nonbenign intentions to work their way into my life, and noone would have batted an eyelid.

"Do we need to go through a period of those with enormous wealth creating social benefits for all, like the parks and housing and concert halls of the Victorians, on our way to better equality? Or is that an even worse idea?"

Firstly I don't think we CAN go back. And what's more I don't think we ever had better equality than between the late nineties and Brexit. BUT that doesn't mean we had equality. We had a better standard of living, sort of, but it also led to a sense of entitlement. Of rights over responsibility. The I'm alright jack attitude that began with thatcher was further cemented and right now is imo out of control in the way you meant by "individualistic". The truth is I don't know what the answer is. But I agree it's awful that we can't seem to have opportunity and social mobility alongside community and social regard. But in my living memory the one kills the other but I want us to have both 😢

I can see how that lack of individual expression gets lost in that way. And the rose-tinting is true, the caginess that comes now actually can protect vulnerable people from a lot of bad things.

What do you mean? That people don’t help each other?

Yes, definitely we can’t go back, but while the wealth is so unevenly distributed is there a way to make billionaires want to do those socially-minded things now? Or is it all about white-washing for tax breaks these days? Was it religion that made the Victorian rich do it, or just human social conscience?

Agree with everything you say - perhaps I’m being hypocritical by wanting both. Is there a society on the planet at the moment which is doing well at balancing social mobility and social regard, or as humans are we just fated for them to cross each other out?

Move to a village or great your own. Always look for the helpers and join in. Society is way more fragmented than social media makes it appear. There are communities - but they are not online. And don’t vote Tory 😉

"Was it religion that made the Victorian rich do it, or just human social conscience?
"
The victorian rich had no more social conscience than the current rich. The Victorian middle classes (an emerging concept that resulted from the brief social mobility that new industrialisation offered) were the leaders of reform. They put pressure in the super rich, which resulted in brief reform. There's also the argument that you need to entertain the masses to keep them sweet. The romans had their games, medievalist cultures had many festival and holy days to keep their serfs sweet, the victorians their parks and music halls. It's almost never been the case that the rich don't have to provide a small amount of fun to the poor. The poor always outnumber. No one wants social revolt. And on it goes

👌🏽😂

Yes, it’s all a bit Hunger Games, isn’t it? Do you think we should be focusing on putting more pressure on the super-wealthy, or are they just untouchable now?

Otherwise, I’ll meet you in Kensington with a flaming torch, and you bring the pitchforks.

What did Thatcher say - I can't recall the direct quote but something about the end of community and the start of individualism.

Then knocked down the council houses and built high rises to really make sure the community was gone.

"Otherwise, I’ll meet you in Kensington with a flaming torch, and you bring the pitchforks."

Seriously- I'm at a loss at how it hasn't come to riots yet! Perhaps the current onslaught of (justified) strike action across so many roles is a precursor. I've not known so many civil servant so unhappy, so undervalued and so oversold. They all seem to be at breaking point. Postal service? Overworked and underpaid! Fucked. Teachers? Overworked and underpaid. Fucked. Nurses? Overworked and underpaid. Fucked. Paramedics? Overworked and underpaid. Fucked. Public transport? Overworked and under load. Fucked. Police? Overworked and underpaid. Fucked. Cps? Overworked and impossible targets. Fucked. Legal aid? Underfunded and unfair. Fucked. MPs? Raking it in and laughing to bank!

I think societies have always been made up of givers and takers. Is it nature or nurture? No idea. But research shows time and again that life's givers are happier and healthier.

Pressed too soon ! Meant to add, so maybe that's an incentive to be less individualistic.

Yes times a million. Curious to see what the next few years look like, and in the meantime I’ll up my volunteering, talk to more neighbours, and fill the shed with placards and Molotov cocktails.

I hope so! With all the self-help books published, maybe this age-old way of thinking will become the hot new trend…