Well said Mr P - response to teacher strike

[MrsMurphyIWish]

No AIBU, just wanted to share.

Solidarity doe those of us striking and to those who are questioning why, please take a listen …

www.facebook.com/reel/708926614094881?fs=e&s=9RfQYY

I find the way that society values different jobs - via the pay that they believe to be acceptable for those jobs - to be interesting, as it demonstrates the value that society as a whole places in those jobs.

It might well be argued that healthcare, early years childcare, education, social care and elderly care are amongst the most important jobs, as their impact on an individual or group of individuals is so great. We know from the pandemic which jobs were the most missed or the most critical in keeping society going for the vast majority, and it wasn’t merchant banking or management consultants .

However, we do now have some voices (a minority of rather shrill and voices, perhaps perturbed by the failure of society to deride these extremist healthcare and education workers who dare to strike) saying that unless employees in these sectors are actually living in dire poverty or paid at the equivalent of the lowest level of unskilled workers, they have no right to request higher wages.

What dies it say about our values as a society that we entertain the idea that these sectors only ‘deserve’ poverty wages? Why must teachers prove their poverty, rather than pointing out their genuine worth?

And while we were there, we all met a teacher who was a pain, who treated us like dirt and who we remember with hatred. But most of us also met teachers who were not, and whose effect on our lives outweighed the effect of that bad one.

I'm sorry but the good teachers were the exception when I was at school, and that wasn't that long ago. Most of them were pretty average with a few real shits amongst them. None of them, not even the good ones, had any effect on me at all. I did my "A" levels at college, which was a totally different experience, but again, there was no one teacher/lecturer who left any particular impression.

It wasn't until I went to University as a student nurse that I met people who did make an impact, and they weren't teachers. I can remember the names of all my tutors, instructors and ward sisters I trained under. I can't remember a single teacher's name, apart from the games mistress who would stare at us in the communal showers...... brrrr, makes me shudder to think about it.

Presumably, since you made it to college and university, you did in fact have some teachers who made a difference to you. It doesn't need to be an emotional thing. They taught you the skills you needed.

Presumably, since you made it to college and university, you did in fact have some teachers who made a difference to you. It doesn't need to be an emotional thing. They taught you the skills you needed.

I didn't waste my time, I paid attention while I was there but I learned far more from my father, mother and grandmother on maths and the sciences and my linguistic skills were totally down to my family. "A" levels were a series of lectures. You did your prep beforehand, made copious notes, and reviewed the source material. There were no "teachers", you followed the course material and kept up. It was 99% down to the individual, which is why I liked it.

The question is, is it a teacher’s job to be memorable by name, likeable, personally caring - and so they are failing if a past pupil does not remember their name - or is it their job to give a decent education, ‘suitable for a pupil’s interests and aptitudes’ , which equips them with the knowledge and skills to get the qualifications necessary for the next stage in their life?

My teachers were, by and large, very efficient educators. Some were also personally congenial, and I remember some of those by face or name. Do I regard the others as ‘failing’, deserving only of poverty wages? No, the more because each pupil’s ‘congenial teachers’ are different- if only 15 of your pupils remember your name as an adult, have you failed because the other 17 didn’t?

Teachers really do graft and the hours they do outside of the classroom really does mean that their actual hours dwarfs a 9-5 week. This needs to be addressed. Much like the NHS the education system seems to run on free overtime which needs to stop.

What people forget though is that teachers and nurses both benefit from an extremely generous pension scheme that provides benefits far beyond the vast majority of private sector employees. So the total reward is far greater than the take home pay. If the unions truly feel that their pay demands are realistic perhaps the pension scheme should be on the table.

I got where I did through the extra work I put in and the help from my family -who were/are highly qualified medical professionals. If I had relied on the education and standard of teaching in my school, pre "A" levels, I would have been fucked.

And it's a recession-proof job for life.

Do you think that, as a result if your experience, that every teacher deserves to be poorly paid?

More importantly, do you believe that the good teachers that every child deserves are more or less likely to be attracted to teaching by current pay and conditions?

So you want parity with the private sector but none of the inherent risks of redundancy or having to provide your own pension, out of your own pocket.

I think that would be a fair argument IF the gap between private and public sector pay, conditions and working practises had remained constant. If a teacher and an office worker with a postgraduate year had differences in their take home pay but they both worked within safe, decently maintained workplaces with the equipment needed to do their jobs, had clear overtime expectations (and rewards), and a job description that remained reasonably constant, then it would be acceptable ti say that the difference in pay reflected the pension and security.

As it happens, the pay gap has widened, and all other aspects of the job have also changed for the worse for teachers - hugely increased job expectations in terms both of teaching and social work, unsafe workplaces, poorly maintained and lacking key resources, increasing unpaid overtime. If all of those could be solved, then looking at overall remuneration (including pensions) and job security might be reasonable.

It is perhaps also worth pointing out that it is no longer a ‘job for life’, and us certainly not recession proof. Slashed school budgets mean experienced teachers are managed out to be replaced by cheaper younger teachers, or not replaced at all as staffing is cut to the bone.

If you want your kids to actually have a teacher then you need to start wanting better pay and conditions for them too.

Any parents with kids in school against improving pay and conditions for teachers must not actually care about their education.

Couldn’t agree more. Will consider sharing with my colleagues - until now I didn’t realise the level of their contempt for the people educating their children. They won’t stop talking about how “disappointed” they are, as if the teachers are the help and their insubordination is very tiresome for the Lady of the house.

Maybe that’s linked to the superhero thing too, in a way - we’re constantly sold the story that a superhero can’t quit, it’s their curse in life to do that role until they die. I feel that some parents see teachers as indentured, or otherwise unable to actually change jobs and do something else.

(Or, they’re completely content for them to leave because they think there’s a line up of superheroes and another will just swoop in and take their place.)

Anyway, my solidarity is with you all.

I have quite a few friends who are teachers and none of them have ever been made redundant or had their pay cut. I also have friends in the commercial sector. Their pay hasn't risen in 3 years, for those who weren't laid off that is. My husband took a 25% pay cut and will get zero increase this year, everybody else is getting 3% or they know where the door is. My next-door neighbour has just been made redundant, for the fifth time. Each time he has to start all over again. Each time he has to accept a lower-grade job as he gets older.

I have quite a few friends who are teachers and none of them have ever been made redundant or had their pay cut.

There have been teacher redundancies at my school. 🤷‍♀️

What school is that then ?.

Like I'm going to tell a random person on the internet where I work

Do you have kids in school? If so, you should be praying for better pay and conditions for teachers, otherwise you might well find your kid without a teacher.

There's been redundancies in schools I know and a lot of cutting back when someone leaves eg. A TLR post holder leaves and a MPS role is advertised, or a replacement isn't recruited and the timetable is covered by non-specialists who might have be an hour or two under allocation.

We had maths and English teachers leave and not be replaced. Class sizes got bigger and we lost a set.

I have two DC who I obviously want to receive a great education. This can only be done by having teachers who are happy and very competent in their job. Hence I support the strikes.

I've never heard of a teacher being laid off, certainly not in the part of London where I live and work but I will ask my friends who are teachers.

I've been a nurse, now sister, in emergency/critical medicine for 20 years. I am fully aware of the constraints of limited budgets, changes in working practices, pay and conditions, and pressure on staffing levels but I would never go on strike or patients would die, and that could be you or any one of your family.

My opinion is, if you don't want to do the job then find another one. I won't be praying for you.

Oh and I know teachers who get paid more than I do. And I'm competent in treating bullet wounds !. Teaching chemistry must be so much harder, obviously !.

A Level Chemistry is brutal!! But I get your point, other jobs are just as challenging.

By my assessment (reading news and knowing a couple of teachers)

Teachers get:

A standard salary that is more than a UK full time average salary

An extraordinarily generous pensions scheme not available to 99% of the private sector.

12 Weeks paid holiday

They also get

A job that can't be done in their contracted working hours so work an awful lot more such that the holidays aren't always holidays

Stress and high pressured environment

Threats of violence and abuse from increasingly disruptive pupils and even parents.

My conclusion

Teachers deserve a pay rise. They graft like nobodies business and deserve to earn more than the average wage. The NEU demanding 12% in the current climate is unrealistic and a slap in the face to all the hard working people out there whos tax will pay for this as well as the pensions that they can't access. If 12% is desired the defined benefits scheme must cease and a new NEST scheme established to be in line with the private sector.

We must do something about the working conditions irrespective of the salary discussion. It is not fair or sustainable.

My opinion is, if you don't want to do the job then find another one. I won't be praying for you.

@EileenAdler making my point beautifully here. You do realise that there’s a serious issue in teacher recruitment and retention, right? That teachers aren’t conscripted to teach your kids?