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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Net contributor or Burden on the state?

166 replies

Whyareblokesonhere · 15/01/2023 21:29

Am I being unreasonable to think that the vast majority of us don't believe we are 'burdens' on public money.

I earn reasonable money, around £65k per year, I assumed that would make me a net contributor, after all I seem to be paying tax left right and center, however whilst it's not actually an easy calculation, I realised today that I'm most likely a burden, mostly due to have several children.

Not a big user of anything medical aside from birth but that must skew things significantly. Two car household and household income of around £80k.

So very likely that I'm actually a burden, changes my perspective somewhat.

So AIBU to think most of us assume incorrectly that we are net contributors?

Also interested as to whether you think you are or aren't? Obviously MN is the land of ultra wealthy as we all know so not a scientific study by any stretch!

OP posts:
MajorCarolDanvers · 16/01/2023 16:43

I'm not a burden.

But I have been in the past.

Likely to be again if I end up in a care home or contract something like cancer.

Aphrathestorm · 16/01/2023 16:44

Overall I'll cost more as I'm disabled and unlikely to work again.

But I'm a very low user of the NHS, less likely to need elderly care, have birthed DCs who are likely to be contributors, etc.

Kabalagala · 16/01/2023 16:46

Currently net contributors as a household with an income tax bill of approximately £30k. 3 kids, one child in school. No benefits and DH pays a healthcare surcharge. Imagine we will break even once kids are all in education.

Zombiemum1946 · 16/01/2023 16:48

I suppose I'm a burden. Meds for life (more than I earn but the keep my out of hospital and keep me working), cancer treatment, regular medical checks and waiting for further surgery. Child benefit x2. I work for the NHS so also take a wage from the state. On some threads I'd be considered a scrounger.

socialmedia23 · 16/01/2023 16:48

I earn 45k but haven't always earned that. However, i am an immigrant and paid international fees at university. No kids, don't use the NHS much, have private healthcare insurance through work. DH earns 65k but he was on free school meals as a kid, also has healthcare insurance through work. We use public transport exclusively though! we probably wouldn't qualify for 30 hours free childcare by the time we have a baby and the baby is eligible at age 3 due to inflation (salaries has risen 30% in past 3 years in our sector).

I think we are net contributors now but wouldn't have said so for all years.

jcyclops · 16/01/2023 16:51

The proportion of people receiving more in benefits than they paid in taxes reached 54.2% in FYE2021 (during Covid) up from 47.5% in FYE2020 (before Covid). This is just in Cash terms, and thus excludes use of public services such as NHS, defence, education etc.

UK public spending is approaching 40% of GDP. The 90th percentile salary is £62,500 and pays 28% in tax & NI, so would be around 40% when VAT, council tax, fuel duty and other indirect taxes are included. On average only the top 10% of earners are net contributors, and 90% of us are recipients. Of course individual circumstances will affect how close you are to the average.

Whyareblokesonhere · 16/01/2023 17:30

Thank you, how do you find that information, I just find it interesting.

Again I apologise to those offended by the words used, as before it's just how I read the described.

The balanced conversation of how it all works is fascinating.

Again for clarity it is not meant to offend or undermine anyone.

Certainly being able to just have a conversation without being attacked, dismissed or ridiculed is surely a sign of adults having a healthy conversation, thanks again for those that have taken this on the spirit it was quite clearly intended!

OP posts:
Notwavingbutsignalling · 16/01/2023 17:58

I do t think anyone should buy into this and see themselves as a burden/net contributor. It’s such dangerous thinking to have of oneself and others. When we do this we are dangerously close to seeing peoples value only in terms of what they cost/contribute in monetary terms.

What price is a volunteer? Where do they show on the stats? A grandparent? A caring adult looking out for their disabled sibling.

We should not collide with this thinking - it makes it far too easy for someone to say I have more value to society than you therefore…and there’s a frightening amount of that around anyway.

None of us asked to be born. None of us.

Notwavingbutsignalling · 16/01/2023 17:59

Collude not collide

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 16/01/2023 18:12

She isn't depending on the state or others to pick up the tab

She's depending on people to run them. She didn't specify she didn't want to depend on the state, she said on anyone, including the state.

socialmedia23 · 16/01/2023 18:14

Notwavingbutsignalling · 16/01/2023 17:58

I do t think anyone should buy into this and see themselves as a burden/net contributor. It’s such dangerous thinking to have of oneself and others. When we do this we are dangerously close to seeing peoples value only in terms of what they cost/contribute in monetary terms.

What price is a volunteer? Where do they show on the stats? A grandparent? A caring adult looking out for their disabled sibling.

We should not collide with this thinking - it makes it far too easy for someone to say I have more value to society than you therefore…and there’s a frightening amount of that around anyway.

None of us asked to be born. None of us.

The rhetoric that anyone with a job and who pays taxes is somehow inherently superior to someone without a job for whatever reason is very prevalent in this country. When the truth is that most people are getting more from the state than they are putting in (unless they are in top 10% of earners). There is a lot of benefits bashing by the general public (mostly by people who generally don't earn that much) when actually they are in the same situation of taking out more than they give. There is nothing wrong with that; but if people were more clear about where they stand, they could have more clear-minded perspectives about public services, taxes (perhaps people would be less opposed to raising taxes given that they are taking out more than they are giving) etc. I mean, if only 10% of the country voted tory, we probably wouldn't have the government that we have today (and many in the top 10% don't even vote Tory, given that a big chunk of them live in London and are in reality middle income Londoners like my DH as an average london earner is often the top 5-8% of the country in terms of earnings).

MooseBreath · 16/01/2023 18:18

Surely having children isn't a burden, as we need to continue the population? Maybe more than 2 could be considered that way, but if you're just replacing yourself and your partner, it's not a loss. They will one day contribute and you made that possible.

Notwavingbutsignalling · 16/01/2023 18:29

@socialmedia23

it has just gotten so much worse in the last twenty years, and yes you are absolutely correct it always comes from people who are benefitting in some way whether they acknowledge it or not.

it’s horrible, Randian nonsense designed to make poor people feel guilty for being born. What happened to us as a society?

SleepingStandingUp · 16/01/2023 18:31

Stepuptowardsinfinity · 16/01/2023 16:25

I'm on a very low income now, not always. For decades I contributed hundreds of thousands in income tax and capital gains tax. I pay full council tax to have my bins collected, walk the streets etc. I'm studying but self funded. I am a net contributor.

Tbf I have no interest in whether you are or not. It was the pity party about not getting enough back as though those of us claiming benefits, DLA, carers, wage tip ups are living some #BestLife at cost to you and all your hard work

CrikeyPeg · 16/01/2023 21:27

Myotherpetisamouse · 15/01/2023 23:58

I think most of the tax is raised by the top few percent and the theory is that if you tax them too much they’ll have the resources and the means to move elsewhere?

@Myotherpetisamouse I read an article about this yesterday (I've done a C&P below rather than posting a link), apparently an exodus of millionaires as Britain loses it's shine and other countries become more attractive to the super wealthy. Caveat, I'm not from/in the UK.

Britain was once a world leader in attracting the super-rich to its shores. Millionaire entrepreneurs and wealthy families flocked to the UK, buoyed by generous tax breaks, a simple visa system and strong economic prospects.
But a series of punishing tax changes, political uncertainty and more difficult migration rules have caused the ultra-wealthy to shun Britain – and take their money elsewhere.
Experts warned this had reduced the nation’s tax intake and resulted in higher taxes on ordinary households to fill the gap.
More millionaires are emigrating from the UK than arriving, according to analysis by migration consultancy Henley & Partners. The country has suffered a net outflow of 12,000 wealthy individuals – those with assets and cash of more than £830,000 (NZD$1.58M) – since 2017, with some 1,500 rich individuals leaving in 2022.
Experts said stealth tax raids and the increasing scrutiny of foreign nationals was to blame for Britain “losing its shine” among the super-wealthy.
The number of people claiming “non-dom” tax status, which exempts British residents with their permanent home abroad from paying UK tax on their foreign income or capital gains, has also fallen sharply.
New claims for the tax break fell from 14,200 to 8,500 in the 2020-21 tax year, according to a Freedom of Information request submitted to HM Revenue & Customs by law firm Pinsent Masons. It marked a further decline from the 15,400 new claims made in 2018-19.
Recent reforms have watered down the tax benefits of non-dom status and made it less appealing, especially when compared to more generous schemes found in other countries.
Experts said the repeated introduction of new tougher rules had scared many people away.
Since 2008, claimants in the UK have had to pay a £30,000 (NZD$57,386) annual charge if they have been a resident for seven of the previous nine tax years. This rises to £60,000 (NZD$114,772) after being resident for 12 of the past 14 tax years.
Another rule change followed in 2017, meaning someone who has lived in the UK for at least 15 of the past 20 years automatically becomes domiciled in the UK and is taxed on their worldwide wealth like the rest of the population.
Steven Porter, of law firm Pinsent Masons, said: “Quite a number of non-doms have left the UK because of the 15-year rule, and we expect this to continue for a number of years.
“It’s just not as favourable for individuals to stay here any more. The UK has lost its lustre.”
Nimesh Shah, of tax specialist Blick Rothenberg, said: “The UK’s non-dom regime used to be the envy of the world. But in recent years the general shine has come off and it has fallen behind other countries, who have been competing hard to attract wealthy talent.”
Wealthy entrepreneurs and investors have also been spooked by Labour promises to abolish non-dom status entirely should it win the next election, experts said.
Other countries are competing to snap up wealthy and talented individuals who feel neglected by Britain.
Andrew Amoils of New World Wealth, an analyst, said: “The UK used to be very smart about encouraging people to move there. That has certainly changed, and we have definitely seen a drop in the number of very wealthy individuals moving to the country since 2017.
“The English language has always kept the UK on the map when it comes to attracting foreign wealth, but there are other English-speaking countries, like Australia, now competing hard for that talent.”
The British inheritance tax system was an ongoing deterrent for foreign nationals, added Amoils.
“The UK has quite a low inheritance tax threshold and high rate of tax when compared with other countries, with the exception of maybe France and Japan.
“There are First World countries that don’t have an inheritance tax, like Australia, or have high thresholds – like the US, where only estates over $12 million are liable.”
Amoils said other countries were now leading the global race to attract wealthy foreign nationals with generous tax schemes. Last year, Greece gained 1,200 millionaires, Portugal attracted 1,300 and Switzerland gained 2,200.
The exodus of rich individuals from the UK and its failure to compete for wealthy talent on the world stage threatens to have dire consequences for the British economy.
Experts have warned business leaders and investors relocating elsewhere because of Britain’s restrictive tax regime would have a “significant long-term impact” on the economy.
Porter said: “When people are this wealthy, they can afford to be picky about where they chose to live and invest their money. They can shop around, and tax benefits are on the top of their list.”
The number of non-doms in the UK has almost halved since 2015, dropping from 123,000 to 68,300 in 2021, according to HMRC data.
The UK government has insisted that despite a fall in new non-doms registering in the UK in 2020-21, which it partly attributed to reduced travel amid the pandemic, its tax income from these individuals remained largely in line with previous years.

XenoBitch · 16/01/2023 21:36

pattihews · 16/01/2023 12:35

Would you elaborate? All I can think of is volunteering and if you can volunteer you can work.

Really? There is a lady who volunteers in a cafe near me one afternoon a week. She has learning disabilities. All they have her do is stand in the middle of the cafe with chips... she shouts "chips!", and the people who ordered them indicate where they are sat.
Tell me how that little volunteer role could mean she would be able to cope in any other workplace?
Or the other volunteer who waters the plants one hour a week. She can't concentrate enough to do much else.
But yeah, they can volunteer, so clearly they can hold down a job.

Do people in the arts not contribute to society? Or people who are caring for family members and actually saving the taxpayer thousands?

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