To think that by and large, most successful women are generally academic but successful men are a mixture of academic, lucky or average?

[HammergoHammer]

I don't quite know how to talk about this. When I had my daughter I hoped she would be academic more than anything. She really struggles with school and I don't think deep down that she will go to university. She wants to work with children, and has been obsessed with babies since she was a toddler. I am aware that things change, and she is only eight but school are concerned about her being so behind and she has a learning support plan.
I so wish that it was my son who struggled because well patriarchy. Out of my friends, all of my successful female friends have degrees, some have degrees and aren't successful (like me) but I know very few who aren't 'clever' be that emotional, academic or know a skill or trade. Even then, as a woman, we are paid so much less for our skills (compare a plumbers salary to a hairdressers or vet assistant). Yet I know plenty of men who are of average intelligence or below, no charisma or connections who just have ended up on 40k a year.
I just worry she's going to struggle financially, even doing something she loves, or be dependent on someone else.

I think there's a great degree in truth in what you're saying. In another way this is pretty much why I put my niece and nephews through Saturday maths tutoring and extra science on week day afternoons - I was particularly militant about it with my niece especially as she's black and we've had many conversations which I've told her that she'll need to work to a herculean effort to make it half as far. Many people's version of success varies but there are some basic truths regardless.

I see it in nursing all the time.My hospital
Band 5 nurses- majority women
Band 6 nurses- half women/ half men
Band 7 nurses- about a third women
Band 8 modern matrons- 3 men. There hasn't been a female modern matron during my time in this hospital, despite many going for the role and having experience acting up in the role.

@HammergoHammer in my previous sector it was overwhelming female, I can't remember the stats exactly, I remember it was shocking though, something like 80% female overall but 90% of the senior management were male.

I have one of those big jobs.
I'm not even from the UK. I've done everything from bar work to cleaning toilets.
At my present company, I started in production and worked my way up. If you're conscientious and driven you can achieve whatever you want.
Now I oversee the entire procurement process.
However, it's long hrs and a large amount of responsibility, especially now post covid.

Dp on the other hand has a Plumbing maintenance business, he has two degrees but runs his business around school hrs to suit his kids. He's been part of the mechanical management of major infrastructure projects like Meadowhall and other large projects. That is not comparable to hairdressing.

If you want something, go achieve it. However, where there is a benefit there will be a burden. Don't blame the patriarchy for that.

@PrincessConstance I would argue the responsibility of a plumber is no more than a nursery worker. Spotting abuse, watching for autism, giving the child to the approved parent rather than the granny who's under the influence (personal experience) that's some serious shit.

The only way to find out is to give plumbing or my job for instance a try.🙂
Cleaning was quite arduous. My current job however means I have to make sure the production lines are stocked and keep running so we can fulfill orders. All in budget.
Dp looks at my 3 screens and says, 'Fuck that' and walks off.
We're currently renovating our house, I think that job is both arduous and technical in equal measure. I cannot imagine working in that environment day after day.
I personally think people overplay their hands when comparing roles. A big job is a big job, with responsibilities and the pay packet to match. If people want it they should do what it takes!

I agree with all of this and your overarching point.

It really pisses me off.

Your broader point is so well made. I agree.

Speaking as someone who most people would describe as academic, I would gently encourage you to rethink your priorities for your daughter. I would rather my DC was happy than bright, 100 times over.

When I was 8 I was given extra homework to catch up in maths. I was behind and HATED learning.

When I was 20, I graduated with a BSC in coding. When I was 26 I had a MSC in coding.

You're panicking too early. Give your head a rest x

When we looked at primary schools for my eldest, the theme seemed to be that almost all the classroom teachers were women but the head was always a man.

To be successful,as in to get into a well paid job ( if that's what we're talking about) , I think men and women all need to be clever, driven, and/ or lucky. I don't see it through the prism of genders. My daughter is quite bright and ridiculously, mercilessly driven and that's what I put her fantabulous, ( as in well paid) career down to.

I think broadly speaking it's because men hold more of the power and they make the rules to favour people like them i.e. men
I think this will shift as we seem more women in senior positions and as women have fewer children and so are less encumbered by domestic responsibilities, and as it becomes more than normal for men to have to step up and pull their weight on the domestic front

My last two female bosses both worked their way up from entry level customer facing roles, so I can see that degrees etc aren’t necessary if a person has drive, capability, and luck. Having said that, there have been a large number of middling male colleagues with far less ability and nouse.

The most successful female friend of mine is the least academic. She has what you'd call hustle - ambition, opportunism, single-mindedness and isn't risk averse.

My husband is a chronic over-thinker. He'll sit there dealing with the 100 might-happens, rather than cracking on and dealing with the one or two 'did happens'. I take more inspiration from my friend than my husband in work!

I see the same attitude with very successful men - they don't fart around worrying about ticking every box. They're not worried about uber-competence Vs uber-confidence.

Sorry, missed a point there...

I think it's easy to dismiss "hustle" as luck, but there's something fairly fundamental to the opportunity-seeking mindset that some individuals have.

It's no more or less "lucky" to be born with that mindset as it is to be born academic.

The one thing I would say is to make sure that her academic achievements are never glossed over. Because people always say that academic success will be rewarded later in life, when in my experience the big winners are those who have the "hustle". So academic kids can lose out twice -once for being put down for their achievements and twice for being less successful than others!

"My last two female bosses both worked their way up from entry level customer facing roles, so I can see that degrees etc aren’t necessary if a person has drive, capability, and luck."

Must depend on the sector because I don't know anyone who's done this and I think it's becoming even rarer.

"The most successful female friend of mine is the least academic. She has what you'd call hustle - ambition, opportunism, single-mindedness and isn't risk averse."

Mine too, but she's quite butch and has many characteristics we'd normally associate with men.

Hustle is vital... it's worth more than a pile of degrees. Everyone I know who has been successful, male and female, has had a drive to win and been willing to take risks. Almost all of us went overseas to earn better in the 1970s, for example.

I know a lot of very dim people who work in sales and recruitment earning £100k +. I’m not being rude, I just know they have zero qualifications, and can’t spell very basic words.

The most academic person I know has just finished his phd at age 33 and has never worked. He will stay at uni, and work as a researcher/lecturer. Not exactly going to be raking it in!

Also, if your DD has a passion for childcare, then great that she’s found something she actually loves! She could be a nanny to the rich and famous, a childminder, or a nursery worker/nursery manager/ owner, maybe an early years teacher. There are decent careers in childcare, and frankly, I’d much prefer my DD was doing something she loved, making a difference and not sitting behind a desk her whole life. She may prefer to have her own babies and be a sahm. Good luck to her

Oh, mine definitely isn't! Very feminine.

I'm not butch, but I'm definitely the most "masculine" out of that friend group - though really I'd say I'm slap down the middle between stereotypically male or female.

But yeah, I do think there's a gendered split to it. And it's generally not about what society chooses to reward either (where gendered professions e.g. plumbing v nursing) - the "hustle" types I know succeed in environments where you have to prove your worth on the bottom line. Marketing, sales, entrepreneurs.

Yes - although my husband currently earns more than me, I'd say that he's more likely to plod steadily up the ranks, whereas I'm more likely to make a million chancing my arm a bit.

In fact, he's currently earning more because I chose to work part time to retrain and upskill in a lucrative freelancing field. Used some of the spare time to improve my investment portfolio. Whereas he's spending days meticulously going through job applications point by point, and if I'm applying, I just sling my CV out there.

It's a good balance to be fair. His steady upward progress is a safety net, and I filter out the ridiculously self-effacing nonsense he puts in job applications.

I've been reading about how all of the early software engineers were women, because it wasn't thought of as important, the emphasis was on the hardware.
As soon as the focus shifted, the men started taking over (and the money went up) and nowadays most of the software people are men

You’ve described my niece. Always needed help at school and in the end was diagnosed with dyslexia/dyscalculia and was just never going to be academic. Wonderful person. Anyway she’s 19 now and went straight into a “male trade”. She works in construction and is very happy with her life and progressing well. There’s nothing stopping her from entering into a trade. A work ethic will get you far.

@karmakameleon

A male primary school teacher, even a mediocre one can very easily land a deputy head position within a few years of qualifying. Just for having a penis.