To think that by and large, most successful women are generally academic but successful men are a mixture of academic, lucky or average?

[HammergoHammer]

I don't quite know how to talk about this. When I had my daughter I hoped she would be academic more than anything. She really struggles with school and I don't think deep down that she will go to university. She wants to work with children, and has been obsessed with babies since she was a toddler. I am aware that things change, and she is only eight but school are concerned about her being so behind and she has a learning support plan.
I so wish that it was my son who struggled because well patriarchy. Out of my friends, all of my successful female friends have degrees, some have degrees and aren't successful (like me) but I know very few who aren't 'clever' be that emotional, academic or know a skill or trade. Even then, as a woman, we are paid so much less for our skills (compare a plumbers salary to a hairdressers or vet assistant). Yet I know plenty of men who are of average intelligence or below, no charisma or connections who just have ended up on 40k a year.
I just worry she's going to struggle financially, even doing something she loves, or be dependent on someone else.

Seems a bit premature to be worrying about this at eight. Encourage her to do what she enjoys at this stage.

She’s 8.
Feed her passions, broaden her world and stop worrying she’s not academic. You don’t have to be academic to be successful & everyone’s definition of success differs.

I'm sorry you're worried OP, I understand what you're saying and agree to an extent although I would keep supporting your daughter and help her find her strengths. She's still very young.

But I know what you mean and I agree, when I look at my work place most (not all) of the men in senior roles are pretty average, whereas the women have had to have bigger achievements, qualifications, experiences etc to get to the same level. They are demonised more for behaviours I see in men. But I suppose we've always known that, women have to work harder to get to the same level. Girls outperform boys in all areas of school I think (correct me if I'm wrong) they do better at uni and I believe they start off better in the workplace, but at some point, despite all this, men disproportionately end up in senior roles and getting paid more.

Yes it's not fair. But many successful women I know are not a a academic. They are hard working, determined and savvy. Some academic women I know are a ball of nerves in crappy relationships and you wouldn't call them successful. Also people get to define their own success. Parents don't define it for them however hard they try. I get it to some degree we would probably agree what successful is not. But try to see the positives and skills your daughter has and help her build on them.

Yes, your wider point is well observed and expressed, @HammergoHammer

(Sorry you’ve had some pointlessly snotty replies. I guess not everyone on MN strives for the same level of debate on universal issues! )

I agree that traditionally manual labour for men has been viewed as more valuable and been paid better.

I suppose we all support this by being willing to pay a plumber more ph to fix a leak than we pay our hairdresser ph to cut our hair.

However, there is nothing stopping your daughter from training in any of those trades. And I think luck, networking and charisma play an important role in success regardless of gender.

A lot of successful women who aren't academic are pretty, because, well, patriarchy. So sad that this is still the case but there you go. The best thing you can do for your DD is encourage her to use her strengths, whatever they may be, and to pursue avenues that interest her.

I agree with your title to an extent because I have a professional qualification that I studied and worked hard for, yet DH has a better paid job than me out of luck and knowing somebody in that company. I dont think a female would have been employed in this role.

For females though it isnt all about qualifications. For example I can think of one person who took the same degree as me (accounting and finance) but didnt use that degree and still works in the shop they worked at when we were in uni. Whereas there are others I know who have done lower level childcare courses and now own their own creche/pre school etc.

My ds was way behind at 7 and 8. He’s got 2 MA’s now and is a successful journalist.

Chindren develop at different rates academically.

I’m in my fifties and the most successful woman in life overall I know does not have a degree. She has made a decent amount of money but she has a sunny disposition, everything seems quite effortless and people adore her. She worked as a PA to the mega rich, no idea who as she had to always sign non disclosures.

I do understand what you are saying though. I was academically inclined and knew it was my way out of poverty as a child. The other thing about Universities is it’s a time where quite a few people pair off so you end up with two people on professional wages. Okay I know not everyone makes a good wage who has a degree but in theory you are overall unless an outlier supposed to earn about 300k more over a lifetime.

Its the patriarchy. Give your DD experiences to gain confidence and get her to try as much stuff as possible.

Yours was the 5th response and not a single response above yours was "snotty", I don't know why people do this on here.

By the way "I guess not everyone on MN strives for the same level of debate on universal issues!" is as snotty as fuck

Internalised misandry and nobody is stopping women from becoming self-employed trades "people".

I was academically behind at 8. I started catching up at 12. Although by this point we had already been ‘set’ at school, and so it was harder to persuade teachers I should do the higher papers- which I eventually got As in. I went to university and I now have a good job.

She’s only 8. Things can change drastically in a few years.

There are many incompetent men at my workplace and noone bats an eyelid. Expectations for women are much higher and you'll get 'talked to' when that happens. In this respect, I agree with you.
I however do think there are different ways of being successful and being academic is only one of them.
My DC is not academic and I do not worry about her future at all.

Doing a four year apprentiships to aquire a trade, plumber electrician engineer, lol. Not academic? I’m afraid they are worth more than most degrees, you have no idea of the content of them, not to mention that they can be horrible messy and sometimes dangerous. ps. I know some fabulous females in these trades…. They do remarkably well btw.

Theres only about 4 degrees that actually improve your earning capability, all maths, science, engineering related (can’t remember the researched 4th) I consider it a huge misselling scandal, but go google the research and see which degrees actually make up the £100k headline benefit the salaries.

Alas, degrees were dumbed down from when i was a young chap…. I know because i went through both systems. People who could barely read and write english passed with a 2:1. Baffles me how. But good for them, because it’s not easy peasy, and i admired their work ethic.

I guess the question i would turn back to you - is how do you measure success???

It’s not just about salary…. For me it was having a period where i earnt enough to be financially secure for life, which then allowed me to drop to the near bottom rung and bring in a £30k salary for a part time role, where i turn up, fix issues, head home, no stress, and get professional kudos as a fixer. I particularly enjoy working with the younger members of the company, and when they ask for technical insight or even career advice, i provide it.

Was i lucky - yes. Found a career that was well regarded and well paid.
Was i academic - no - but i have 2 degrees, despite failing all my GcSE and have no a levels.
I do feel successfull - but i’m no (never have been) captain of industry and happy to do a part time 9-5 run of the mill - and have a great family life where i dont bring any stress/work home and although i’m not main breadwinner - happy to pass on most of my earnings to help run the home and support our kids.

I also feel rather average - except that financially - excluding property - i’m in top 5%.

So possibly - most people will interpret the above as luck…. But - id caveat that with not having a life for 30’odd years, 100% workaholic, no time for LTR, didn’t end up marrying, no kids of my own, step kids now…. Might have been luck - but at the expense of hard work and a limited life.

The successfull women i’ve worked with through the years…. They did professional qualifications more than the academic qualification route - but i suspect that’s an age thing - and now i would expect it to be academic followed by professional.

I guess i’d sum up to say…. I don’t see having a degree as anything special any more, i’d encourage individuals more into the professional routes first via apprenticeships, but if they did go down the degree route - don’t pick up the entitled attitude that so many graduates with limited work exnvironment arrive with - and look to move forward with adding more industry specific professional qualifications.

(i’d caveat the above by saying that i know it’s not the only route - and that for instance some degrees are very specialised and a must have for certain paths…. I’ve just found that to be the exception out of the thousands of degree courses out there… Comparing 100 variants of generic studies degrees with a Maths degree from bath, is comparing apples & oranges - and you can’t make OJ with apples.)

I think there is a route to success no matter which path you take. I think the academic route is more aligned to females these days (i will get blasted for that - but it’s based on some old research which i still believe to be accurate).. I just fear that people are sold the academic route as a definate route to success - but it’s not. Whichever route you do take - it’s hard - and i’m sure our own definitions of what success looks like throughout our life changes over time anyway - and industry has a way of breaking/dumbing things down over time so it doesn’t have to pay silly money for skills long term. So if you want big money - don’t join big organisations - because they are a meat grinder and only less than 5% in them reach that level. And you have to be picky about the not so small companies and what skills and experience you are bringing to the table.

I know a lot of academically-inclined women who did very well in the education system but haven’t gone on to do anything very exciting since. Lots with postgrad quals.

I could have been your daughter at 8. I loved children, babies and animals. I used to spend hours playing with my neighbours' toddlers. Neighbour was a teacher and said to my mum that I wasn't very bright but had the gift of 'children' so would probably not be able to do O levels but might get some CSEs and work as a nursery nurse. Admittedly I wasn't doing very well at school at that point and wasn't interested in learning. They moved away but my mum bumped into her not so long ago and seem to take great pleasure in telling her about my 2 degrees and Msc and professional career.

Obviously there is nothing wrong with wanting to be a childcare worker but beware of labelling an 8 year old as this or that.

I am successful and have a “big” job, but I was academically average mainly because I was lazy and more into partying than going to lectures at uni. I would say I have been successful in my career because I have great peoples skills, build networks/ relationships easily and also happened to be in the right place, at the right time. I think peoples skills and being well like and well connected is far more important than a good degree at least in my industry.

Isn't it because of attitudes like yours? Why wouldn't she be a plumber?

It's fairly offensive to imply that a 'low' prestige/earner person is "unsuccessful" in life.

Trying to be constructive, I can't make sense of this thread because "successful" is never defined.
Candidate definitions

• earns at least 40k/year
• has a career
• simply feels successful
• some other definition, could literally be anything
• some combination of above.

Tell me what you're talking about & maybe I can figure out if I have an opinion about the answer.

Depends how you measure success too.
Most of the women I know who are happy and well off seem to have a combination of good interpersonal skills, enough intelligence to navigate the world and the willingness to work hard/be curious, they're more entrepreneurs in spirit than academic per se.

Depends on your definition of successful.

I am intelligent but not academic. I work full time at a job I enjoy and am interested in. I brought my son up without his father being involved and he is a clever, funny and warm little boy. We have a comfortable home, small luxuries and a limited disposable income for treats, presents and things we want. I am not in a relationship and am likely to remain single indefinitely.

I don't equate success with being married, having a high-powered job and lots of money. We have a nice life and we are happy.

If your daughter loves children and that continues into later life - would it not be a success for her to be happy and fulfilled with a job in childcare?

I agree with you general point about the workplace being biased towards men. I think that's a generally accepted fact.

In terms of your daughter, you need to change your mindset though. Although, probably easier to be successful if you're very academic it's not the only way to be successful. Concentrate on her strengths, put your energy into giving her every opportunity to expand and develop those. Encourage her to work hard and be positive about what she can achieve.

FWIW I'm a nanny and earn more than £40k a year (quite a bit more!) so wanting a career in childcare doesn't necessarily limit her to a minimum wage job. It's your attitude that will do that.

I definitely don't define successful as just relating to money. But being broke is hard, and it takes away your choices. If you're a nursery worker, you have to have a great knowledge of children's development, psychology, safeguarding, SEN, people skills, diplomacy etc. Yet society deems this role only deserves minimum wage. I used to make lattes all day for more. My sons preschool key worker spoke three languages, was an ex tefl teacher and she knew so much about Latin American politics. But something goes wrong for women and we end up in these lower paid roles.
I want my daughter to be able to afford to leave a relationship if she's unhappy, to be able to one day own her own home with a garden for the dog she wants, I want her to enjoy her maternity and not have her card declined when she's trying to buy a pint of milk. I have experienced all of these elements, and I worry that she will too.
So no, money doesn't define success. But it damn well makes your life easier at times.

@NuffSaidSam obviously wanting a career in childcare isn't damning yourself to a life of minimum wage, but that's what my post is about, you have to have a skill and then something else (drive, connections, emotional intelligence) to really make it as a woman. Statistically if you go into childcare you will end up in a nursery, the same as if you train as a nurse, you will likely end up as a band 5 working on a ward or in the community. It's not like, say, accountancy where you are very much in demand, not just for your accountancy skills, but for what that degree says about your abilities.