To think work no longer ‘pays’

[Cuppasoupmonster]

This is a controversial topic so I’m expecting a few biscuits to be thrown at me so I’ve got my hard hat on. Inspired by the ‘benefits overhaul’ thread.

I often see on here that working and owning your own home is always better than claiming benefits and living in social housing. But it seems like the perks are long gone if I’m honest.

It feels like every day I’m dragging myself up at 6am to take my daughter to nursery (when I would much rather have her at home with me), just to pay our enormous mortgage and bills, before breaking even at the end. We haven’t had a holiday in 5 years. A few months ago I went into my overdraft for the first time in about 6-7 years despite the fact my spending is no different. What are the upsides again? Is it just that we get to choose the care home we die in (perhaps)? Because right now I’m feeling pretty pissed off with the whole thing and wondering if anyone else feels the same.

So you're advocating forced labour? There's another word for that.

Your post is repellent.

So you're advocating forced labour? There's another word for that

Sometimes I wonder if I'm what could be described as right wing and then I read posters like that and realise that actually I'm mostly a liberal minded sort who knows that living on benefits isn't always the cushy lifestyle choice some people make it out to be. And that sometimes (like it was when my father died) the line between doing nicely for yourself and needing that welfare cushion is a pretty fine one.

What are benefits anyway? It's interesting how many people don't consider the state pension to be a benefit - although it undoubtedly is, and a far more costly one than unemployment benefit.
I receive benefits - all associated with my employment. Employer-provided accommodation (which I was charged for, but at a much lower rate than a private rental in the same situation). Employer-provided transport (for which I am taxed as if it were salary). Employer-provided health cover. But no-one ever suggests that when I avail myself of these, I am 'claiming benefits'. It is always presumed that I have earned them.
So why does a mum raising the next generation of British citizens not 'earn' her benefits? Why does a worker on minimum wage needing housing benefit to make rent in the area they live and work not 'earn' this benefit? Why is being a citizen not seen as more valuable than being an employee?

Benefits aren't pittance either! Benefits are meant to be the minimum standard so a room in a shared house, basic food and enough free time to look for paid employment. They are not an opportunity to make sure you are home for the school run etc

So let me get this right. You would be quite happy if a family with children are forced to share a house and survive on basic rations. Also, if that family is headed up by a single parent then what happens to the DC if there is no-one else to do the school run? Schools and SS take a very dim view when it comes to young children being abandoned at the school gate o a regular basis.

Just to add we are anything but wealthy, I wish, if we were wealthy I wouldn't be setting a 4:30 alarm!

That's the choice YOU made, not a benefit claimants fault. Don't like it, find a job where you can set your alarm later. FWIW I have a 4.30 alarm every morning as well so you're not that hard done by.

ZHC jobs are not those aimed at working families, we have some ZHC at work they are all taken by young adults looking for work around college/university or woman wanting to earn pocket money. My MIL works a zero hour contract now she semi retired to pay for holidays etc.

Many, many companies only offer ZHC's. What don't you offer fixed hours?

What with the advocation of forcing people to work for benefits and your use of ZHC's it's not hard to tell what kind of a person you are.

I would say anything but disability to be honest. I also think critical illness cover should be mandatory. If you look at Asian families it's not unusual to hold down a day job and help in the family business on a weekend or even shock horror after doing a 8hour shift at work. Our local indian take away is run by a family, the youngest son is a FY2 doctor he still takes his turn to help his parents out and he would never say no to them. The other kids also have their own careers and businesses but you still see them helping.

No I don't think you should have the nice things in life unless you are working or can fund that lifestyle through other means such as savings or investments.

To me the state should fund education, health, security, investment and infrastructure investment in that order. We should set a tax limit at X% whatever is left can fund benefits.

State pensions should also be looked at, the money we pay in NI should be invested in the country's future. The return on that investment funds any increases, so the economy isn't growing pensioners don't get a rise just like the current situation with the emergency service, teachers etc.

Yes I do think if you can't fund yourself to stay home you should have to do something for the state to get hand outs. No one has the right to have kids they can't afford, we worked our finance out when DS was small and realised having a brother or sister for him wasn't viable so we didn't have one.

My work place only offers a contract of guaranteed hours if you are fully flexible. If you are a parent, carer or disabled you are discriminated against basically.

I also think critical illness cover should be mandatory

And how are care workers supposed to afford that ......oh i get it. What you are saying is you are happy to pay double what you pay now for elderly relatives in care homes so care workers can be paid more so they can afford critical illness cover. Ditto supermarket workers. You will be happy for food to go up so supermarket workers get paid more to afford this cover.

@FortSalem86 And people like the OP wonder why there isnt an army of family carers to look after elderly relatives so they can be discharged from hospital

I would say anything but disability to be honest

So this applies when a woman has just given birth, she should be straight back to work? and my having paid NI for nearly 50 years to accrue entitlement to a state pension should actually entitle me to it, I have to keep working to maintain that entitlement?

No I don't think you should have the nice things in life unless you are working or can fund that lifestyle through other means such as savings or investments

As someone living on a SP I can't have anything nice, is that right? bang goes the smoked salmon sarnies then, and back to the sandwich spread with no butter - that's be too much of a luxury. Your argument pretty much is a good life (however defined) is for the rich.

Wind-up, and I fell for it. Well done.

@Grumpybutfunny Critical illness cover is cost can be extremely high if you have any existing health problems, a family history of heart disease, cancer etc or if you have smoked or are overweight. In some cases insurers will refuse to provide cover at all. This is not the answer.

and my having paid NI for nearly 50 years to accrue entitlement to a state pension should* actually entitle me to it,

I meant shouldn't, of course

YANBU

I was better off as a student (mature student)

rent paid, no council tax, could earn a little, ds
nursery fees paid

I know a few newly qualified nurses who are in the same position

Im a mh unit manager I looking for another job as I simply can’t make ends meet it’s ridiculous and I feel cheated after I have put so much work in and worked so hard

We both work 24/7 shifts and because we are loyal they help us out so they are basically opposite shifts. We in turn help them out covering shifts etc when we can.
If we were awkward and didn't cover shift I don't imagine the same flexibility would be offered.

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain I took 4 months off which we funded. American maternity leave is only 10 weeks unpaid and they manage. In truth a lot of companies offer employees more as a benefit of employment. I don't think the government should be paying for 39 weeks off. I would rather they put that money into nurseries creating jobs in the process.

Group critical illness policies are surprisingly cheap for companies to offer. Considering we are currently in a labour shortage it would be a good selling point for most employers.

I was made redundant

I received £74 a week contributions based job seekers payment for a few weeks

Try living off that !

I got a job quickly

It is better to be in work

@Grumpybutfunny it's easy to cover opposite shifts if you aren't a single parent...

The American system of not offering more than 10 weeks mat leave is really not something to aspire to - I have relatives in the US and believe me, they aren't happy with it. At 10 weeks you aren't even close to physically recovering from the birth even if you've had a normal vaginal birth.

You're advocating for going backwards in terms of rights for workers. Why not look at countries where things are better for workers, not worse? Right now you're coming across as an extreme capitalism red in tooth and claw libertarian. It's not a good look.

It isn’t ‘taken off you’ you sell one home to pay for another.

I took 4 months off which we funded

Good for you. Now try and get your head around the fact that not everyone can afford to do that.

JSA isn't the lap of luxury some people might think it is - and it's taxable.

Critical illness cover !!! I haven't been able to get that since my cancer at 35. Life insurance companies won't even look at me. Some people have no idea just how quickly it can all fall apart at no fault of your own. Given the current cost crisis this thread is sickening in it's blaming of those struggling. I've been there as a child and an adult, it's shit not luxury or fun.

I don't think the government should be paying for 39 weeks off. I would rather they put that money into nurseries creating jobs in the process.

Do we need more jobs for nursery workers. Is it easy to recruit at the moment? There must be a finite number of people wanting to work looking after other people’s sprogs. Not to mention the added costs of buildings to house all these nurseries. It’s probably more cost effective to fund maternity leave.

And as for critical illness cover, then DH was unable to get it after suffering a heart attack in his 40s. However you’ll be relieved to know he’s actually a high earner who has not claimed any benefits since.

We definitely do not need to create more jobs for nursery workers. Nurseries are understaffed already and crying out for people who want to work in them!

We definitely do not need to create more jobs for nursery workers. Nurseries are understaffed already and crying out for people who want to work in them!

That suggests there is already a surplus of jobs and a shortage of workers to fill them.

Benefits aren't pittance either! Benefits are meant to be the minimum standard so a room in a shared house, basic food and enough free time to look for paid employment. They are not an opportunity to make sure you are home for the school run etc. When DS was really little we worked opposite shifts with one weekend off together every 8 weeks so we didn't have a massive childcare bill and could establish ourselves in our careers. DS doesn't remember a minute of it and it's put us in a good position.

@Grumpybutfunny how would you address a situation like mine, where I needed to be available for school runs some days because my DD's father decided, after the event, that being a responsible adult and co- supporting the child he co-created wasn't for him a few years in, and the childcare options swung from very good to non existent and back again over the course of the years I needed them? There was no one to work opposite shifts with, they walked away.
What exactly are the options, small child in shared accomodation with not enough basic food for two because it's designed to support one, and do what with said child outside of school hours while I 'volunteer', work or seek work?
Mandatory adoption because my partner decided he just didn't want to any more?
Shove her back?
Enforce payment of child support?
Or, let me guess, perhaps tell me I'm getting what I deserve because I should have chosen better, while ignoring the fact that he's the one not taking responsibility and thus encouraging such behaviour? I think I know which option you'd be going for.

ZHC jobs are not those aimed at working families, we have some ZHC at work they are all taken by young adults looking for work around college/university or woman wanting to earn pocket money. My MIL works a zero hour contract now she semi retired to pay for holidays etc.

Then the government need to step in and at least ensure that essential jobs like supermarkets and care homes, that will always have minimum hours that need to be covered, offer proper contracts at full time hours, I agree that they were never aimed at working families, but the reality is they are used so employers keep their costs down in jobs where they don't need to be used, because they always have hours to cover. They should exist, but only for as and when jobs, seasonal stuff where demand rises and falls, not to keep costs low for employers, and then have people like you blaming the people getting those jobs for taking them because they're all that's on offer - and don't start with the people have choices, because as a society if we want care homes and supermarkets then we need people to work in them.

So many people with attitudes like yours have no issue at all with using the services provided by those working in the type of jobs where zero hour contracts keep costs to business and therefore customers lower, only with said workers needing support when they can't live on the results of those artificially low prices. Funny that.

WHY shouldn’t we aim for more than managing, though? And how do you define managing, even? Why is the optimum seen as whatever country is offering the lowest?

We’ve designed this world, and it’s so depressing to hear people say that managing is sufficient for anyone who isn’t basically a capitalist machine.

I’ve been really poor and it was dreadful. It angers me that single people are treated so badly compared to families. But mostly it angers me that the only people who many want to see have any enjoyment in life are those who are well-paid.

I have a decentish job, higher rate taxpayer, I manage being single because I’m frugal. But if I had a kid, I’d want better than this for them. Not just the kids whose parents can afford private school and Bupa and who don’t think they’ll ever become vulnerable in any way.