How disruptive does a child have to be to be removed from Primary School?!

[Juggletits]

Ongoing saga at our primary school. One child has been hugely disruptive since day one - attacking other children (stabbing with pencils, stamping on chests, stomach punches, facial damage with nails or sports equipment amongst many others), attacking teachers, throwing chairs, upending tables and regularly trying to escape.

Last term they brought a pocket knife in to school and showed it to other children, cut his own trousers and threatened other children that he "could stab them"

There is an ever growing list of assaults and incidents against many children and the parent community is absolutely baffled as to why the child has not been removed. They clearly need serious and ongoing support and our school is not set up for a child with such a level of additional needs.

The reason from the HT is that "certain thresholds haven't been met"

Does anyone know what these thresholds are from a legal/professional point of view?

It has reached the point that parents are keeping their children out of school because they are not safe in the classroom.

Multiple emails have been sent to the school, Academy Trust, Ofsted and MARU

What more can be done? An entire school is being disrupted by one child - this cannot be right?!

There aren’t enough SS places, and unless the pupil has an excellent EHCP it is often cheaper, so LAs continue to persevere with MS even when it isn’t in the pupil’s best interest and parents want SS.

This! And I say this as a parent of a similar child/difficulty when in mainstream (minus the knife) I was screaming (still am) for help, the school was putting up barriers, ultimately I and my child was to blame in the eyes of school and other parents but my child was unsupported and in the wrong environment. I discipline my child, I put on place strong boundaries but these may be different from the kinds of discipline and boundaries that work for neurotypical children and often could look like I'm lax in that area from the outside judgemental eye.

I can understand the other side though, and your need to protect your child. Something school should be doing and it sounds like they aren't. Unfortunately parents striking/collectively not sending children just further alienates an already struggling parent/child. I agree that writing/complaining about the system, rather than the actual child, each time is the way to go and if all parents can consistently do this something will eventually be done. From experience though, it might not end well for that parent/child, but it seems to be the only way to safeguard every child.

Wow. The blame the child attitude here is disgusting. I am horrified that parents (and even school governors!) are advocating for a child with ND and additional needs be segregated instead of providing them with additional supports that they clearly need. Educational segregation needs to stop in the UK. It's discriminatory at best and teaching our children that people with ND need to be locked up/put away rather than included in society.

But that really does depend on the needs of the child ,not all children are suited to mainstream education mine certainly isn't ,I can ,t comment on the child in question here ,but I am say it would be massively unfair to my child if he had been shoe horned into a mainstream school with just a 1:1,as from my experience he wouldn't have been included ,he would have been a class novelty at best
he's always gone to a special school( he's 12) and is very much included in his school and this is the best place for him ,inclusion shouldn't be about mainstream at all costs but finding the best place to meet the individual child's needs .

The thing is, the additional support that this child is likely to need are most likely to be found in a good special school that has extremely high ratios of specifically trained and expert staff, and an adapted curriculum and environment that meets their needs.

It is not necessarily to be found in a busy, low staff ratio mainstream school, with a highly academic and ‘content rich’ curriculum, even if a 1:1 staff member is assigned to them.

‘Physical inclusion at all costs’ is , for very high needs children, often ‘isolation and failure’, as they cannot adapt their behaviour and needs to succeed in that classroom environment - through no failure of their own or the school’s. It’s expecting a fish to climb a tree - even with an individual helper to lift the fish up into the branches, it’s not going to succeed.

Unfortunately, in today’s political and funding environment, the only way for a child to reach the additional support they need in a specialist setting is to fail so dramatically in a mainstream setting that they and others are harmed. Which is obviously a dramatic government failure.

This is exactly the problem. Thousands of children are being babysat in mainstream Infant schools up and down the country. I say Infant schools because, in my experience at least, by Year 2 the schools are saying that transition to a mainstream Junior school is untenable and that’s when they’re forced to look at SEN schools from year 3. That’s a very well-trodden path for families I know.

Inclusion is a thorny issue. I think some parents are, for numerous reasons, so very against the idea of sending their child to a SEN school, even if their needs are incredibly high. The stigma of “special school” is a big deal. For some I think it’s a kind of denial?

Of course there are other families who want SEN schools from Reception age, only to be told that there aren’t any local SEN schools that take children so young. The only option is to be babysat at mainstream until they reach the right age.

The problem with “inclusion” as a concept, as noble as it is, is it makes parents believe that mainstream schools are equipped to deal with all manner of complex needs and disabilities. And they’re not. I had no idea that kids who can’t access the classroom or the curriculum sit with their TAs watching cartoons, or wander around the corridors for large portions of the day. But they do.

We have a not dissimilar situation going on in my son's class.

We have spelt it out in formal letters that we fear a massive safeguarding incident if not dealt with.

Everything incident you have has to be documented - and can't purely go on heresy - it's take photos of injuries and say kids mental health damaged etc etc. Focus on the impact on your child and how they are being harmed in specific incidents rather than more generalised behavioural issues.

Say that the needs of other children are not being met and balanced and keep at it.

The school have to go through a process of demonstrating that they have taken every possible step and have exhausted all avenues. Writing letters will help the school build a case. The school won't want the child anymore than you do. My friend works in another class with another child who is currently hurting her on a daily basis - she doesn't want that and the other staff don't want it

I know lots of schools are having similar issues at the moment and kids can't get diagnosis or spaces in special schools so there is pushback in the system

Remind of legal responsibilities and consequences if this continues and nothing is done.

In our case the parents are determined to keep the kid in the school despite the head saying they can't meet the child's needs. My suspicion is he will eventually go boom and there will be a major incident and he won't come back at some point before yr 6. He is special needs but his needs are extreme and even though the parents do care for him they are clueless, feeding the situation and aren't coping. His formal diagnosis is stuck in the system so he's not getting the right support and the school are stuck until that happens too. They will need to demonstrate that even with support the situation still isn't under control.

We've actually been fortunate in that DS and one other boy in the friendship group have also been flagged with SEN needs so that's adding pressure to the mix about the school needing to address that too.

But yes all the other agencies - council and ousted are places to get onto as well. Keep writing letters and stress that if something does happen with the paper trail you've got, heads will roll in terms of liability...

It will take time but the system is utterly fucked. Remember you and the school are probably on the same page here not at odds with each other so phrase things to aid their case for funding or sending the child to a more appropriate setting.

His formal diagnosis is stuck in the system so he's not getting the right support and the school are stuck until that happens too.

No they aren’t. Support in schools is based on needs, not diagnosis. An EHCP and provision within it doesn’t require a diagnosis.

They need specialist support though.

I am aware of the kid in my son's class and what he does. If he starts to kick off even when he's being given one to one he starts screaming and attacking staff and other children. It's a fight or flight response but he has enough emotional intelligence to also manipulate the situation.

When they were doing a test he started to kick off and was saying 'im not going to do this. I'm going to deliberately get everything wrong'. Before running around the classroom jumping on tables and then properly kicking off. Can you imagine if he did this when the others were supposed to be doing SATS?

As it is it's so disruptive there are days when I wonder how the class learn anything.

And that's before I start talking about how he's bullied other children and hurt other children

Being inclusive in this situation isn't actually including everyone. It's putting the behaviour of this child about the needs of all the other kids in the class

As I say DS being flagged for SEN too has helped because we can make an argument that they are failing to provide both a safe environment and for his learning needs.

If he was getting the support he needs then, it wouldn't be a problem but he's not. He's being failed too. But genuinely having seen on occasion three members of staff be required to deal with this one child, how can you include them in a normal school environment?

They need a quiet environment which is calm and quite not with 101 distractions and having to compete with others for attention. It's not the right environment for their needs - that's the point. The fact they end up being kicked out is a sign of the failure of the system to intervene much sooner to stop it reaching crisis point where the child and their classmates end up injured or traumatised.

The child needs to learn the coping methods for society before being thrown into society not the other way around where they fail to cope and then implode with damaged mental health as a side effect, told they are naughty / evil etc etc and have this massive social rejection in a negative way. If you make the specialist facilities a positive step rather than a last resort it's a completely different position for all concerned.

Delays in SEN diagnosis and a lack of spaces are the issue here. The kids who need this level of support aren't getting it early enough and too few are.

My son likes this kid, but he's come home with bruises and in tears too. My son should be taught healthy boundaries and it's ok to say no , rather than feel he should have to put up with it 'to be kind'. That's not being kind to him - that's setting up kids to be vulnerable to abusive relationships in future. And actually if the kid is SEN and the kids around have negative experiences that in the long term doesn't bode well for inclusion - they will eventually steer clear of anyone with SEN because of a negative experience.

The point here is that ALL kids have a right to a safe and appropriate environment. If they can be included great but if 'inclusion' actually means at their expense that's a failure. The needs of the entire class have to be fairly balanced and them all be equals rather than some 'more equal' than others.

This👏🏼 Inclusion shouldn’t shouldn’t come at the cost of worrying whether your child will be shanked in school.

You need to go for the safety and safeguarding of your child from harm during the school day. Their duty of care to keep your child safe. Also the mention the fear your child has. Do all this is writing/email. Keep a paper trail. Every time an incident happens with your child another email.

Unfortunately parents striking/collectively not sending children just further alienates an already struggling parent/child. I agree that writing/complaining about the system, rather than the actual child, each time is the way to go and if all parents can consistently do this something will eventually be done. From experience though, it might not end well for that parent/child, but it seems to be the only way to safeguard every child

I think we've had a better response by framing it as the child being failed and at risk as well as our own rather than 'bad'.

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Can you imagine if he did this when the others were supposed to be doing SATS?

If the pupil sat SATs surely the school would put access arrangements in place including separate invigilation. If they don’t that’s a failure on the school’s part.

In the first instance, the goal of alternative provision is to address the causes of challenging behaviour and to support students/children to modify their behaviours so that they can access the main stream curriculum. In certain cases there are some students for whom mainstream will never be suitable. If I was cynical, I would say that money is also a factor. Alternative provision is expensive. Some alternative provisions cost more than a place at Eton.

And what about all the missed learning leading up to that?

This incident was the first time he'd done this as far as I'm aware - in October. School wouldn't necessarily have risk assessed it as an issue back in July when they were actually doing their SATS.

I'm sorry but he's just not able to cope in a class of 30 - and taking him out for that just would demonstrate it anyway.

The rest of the time wasn’t what I was commenting on. It was the sentence I quoted that I focused on. However, the school should be supporting and signposting the parents to secure additional support via an EHCP.

For a pupil with such significant needs like you post about separate invigilation for SATs and other exams is a common access arrangement even if such an incident hadn’t previously taken place.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I am sharing the thread with our parents group as it will be helpful for everyone.

The youngster has identified a pocket knife at home, secreted it on his person to bring it into school, evaded detection with it and understands peer rivalry and impressing people . He may be neurodivergent, but he does not have a learning disability and would not be selected to go to a special or SEN school, where many children are working at pre-National Curriculum P levels.

The child might be considered for a pupil referral unit, but these usually cater for secondary aged children because, often, it is possible to guide disruptive children away from their behaviours in a mainstream setting. Counselling and reward charts often do work.. Progress is often achieved at primary level.

The most likely outcome is that this child will be educated at home on an alternative provision programme. Many children who display challenging behaviour in groups do not on a one-to-one basis.

The school which OP writes about sounds like their behaviour policy or the plan to implement it, isn't fit for for purpose. There should be adequate supervision in place to pre-empt assaults, especially once the behaviour becomes known. It's very, very disappointing to read about the school getting caught out, all the time. Anticipation is everything.

The child needs assistance from skilled behaviour mentor.

In London, staff probably would be recruited. All sorts of care positions are filled. I understand that this might not be the case in other parts of the country. There are measures staff can take, such as wearing plastic gloves or arm protectors to avoid being hurt, and this is a young, so not enormous, child. Training in behaviour management techniques should be used.

He may be neurodivergent, but he does not have a learning disability and would not be selected to go to a special or SEN school, where many children are working at pre-National Curriculum P levels.

You do realise not all pupils in special schools have a learning disability, don’t you? There are special schools where pupils sit GCSEs and A levels. However, none of what you have written necessarily means the pupil does not have a learning disability, those with LDs have differing levels of needs.


The child might be considered for a pupil referral unit, but these usually cater for secondary aged children

There are PRUs who cater for primary aged pupils.

They are.

It's not helping. Nor did it stop bullying and various children getting hurt. Nor kid escaping the school grounds (climbed fence into neighbouring property).

Kid is out of control. School are struggling cos although there is an EHCP he is yet to get a diagnosis which limits the amount of support available that they can provide. This doesn't include playtimes either anyway for his general behaviour. Parents are struggling and acting inappropriately in front of him which was contributing.

After I complained I believe there was talk of additional organisations being involved. Because this is appropriate for the level of his needs. He's putting himself at risk. School don't have the resources to protect him from himself nevermind others.

would not be selected to go to a special or SEN school, where many children are working at pre-National Curriculum P levels.

It depends on the type of Special School. Some are for those with moderate learning disability or profound and multiple learning disabilities, and yes, the child mentioned in the OP may not meet the criteria for admission. However, there are also Special Schools that cater very specifically fog those with behavioural / emotional difficulties , while delivering a close to age appropriate curriculum from the academic point of view. Others, or units attached to mainstream schools, cater for sensory impairments (deafness or blindness) or ASD, again often with an academic curriculum that is close to or at age appropriate.

Yes, a child’s needs need to be much more severe than even recently were the case, and eg a MLD special school may well have children with ASD and ADHD as well as learning difficulties. However, to say that a child with extreme behaviour needs also requires extreme learning needs to access specialist schooling is simply wrong.

Many pupil referral units are for secondary aged children, though. I think mental health needs as well as autism and challenging behaviour might need to be the criteria for accessing a place at a younger age. So often schools can do something to help the behaviour. Or used to be able to, when they had staff.

Bringing a pocket knife it's a reason for permanent exclusion even if he didn't attack any children!!!!!!!!

Contact OFSTED now!!!!

Not having a diagnosis does not limit the support that can be given in an EHCP. If the school are saying that it is completely incorrect.

They could also push for and support the parent in appealing if necessary for provision to cover lunch time and break.

The school not having the resources is why the EHCP needs amending so it is fit for purpose as it doesn’t sound like it is.

"He may be neurodivergent, but he does not have a learning disability and would not be selected to go to a special or SEN school, where many children are working at pre-National Curriculum P levels."

There are ASD specialist schools for children without learning disabilities although it is frequently a battle to get a place in one as there aren't enough places.