How disruptive does a child have to be to be removed from Primary School?!

[Juggletits]

Ongoing saga at our primary school. One child has been hugely disruptive since day one - attacking other children (stabbing with pencils, stamping on chests, stomach punches, facial damage with nails or sports equipment amongst many others), attacking teachers, throwing chairs, upending tables and regularly trying to escape.

Last term they brought a pocket knife in to school and showed it to other children, cut his own trousers and threatened other children that he "could stab them"

There is an ever growing list of assaults and incidents against many children and the parent community is absolutely baffled as to why the child has not been removed. They clearly need serious and ongoing support and our school is not set up for a child with such a level of additional needs.

The reason from the HT is that "certain thresholds haven't been met"

Does anyone know what these thresholds are from a legal/professional point of view?

It has reached the point that parents are keeping their children out of school because they are not safe in the classroom.

Multiple emails have been sent to the school, Academy Trust, Ofsted and MARU

What more can be done? An entire school is being disrupted by one child - this cannot be right?!

That doesn’t sound to be the case in the situation I was commenting on though. The posts state the parents want more support. If the parents can’t navigate the system alone the school should be supporting them to appeal and signposting them to services that can support them through an appeal.

I was responding to I believe in the case of this child there has been dispute over the support the parents believe is needed, what the school believe is needed and what the LA are prepared to provide.

I can see this could be read in a number of ways - school & parents vs LA (best case scenario in terms of working to get things resolved); parents vs school and LA; parents vs school vs LA (probably the worst case). I am not sure which is most likely from reading the post - reference to eg watching inappropriate material and acting it out does imply that home & school may not be quite on the sane page. (I am reminded of an occasion with a slightly similar child where a dad stood up, red in the face and balling his fists threateningly in my direction ‘what do you mean? There’s no problem with X. I was just the same at his age and I turned out ok!’)

From reading Red’s other posts I think it probably is parents v school v LA. I thought it sounded like the parents do want support, but want to remain in MS where school don’t believe they can meet his needs - although the school don’t seem to be providing all the support that could be provided in MS. So even if the school and parents aren’t fully on the same page the school could support the parents to secure more support.

Write a formal complaint to school about the knife incident using their formal complaint procedure and demand that they come up with a written plan on how they are going to ensure that other children in the school are kept safe. If they don't, report it as a safeguarding incident to ofsted. This might trigger an urgent safeguarding inspection.

You miss the point. The parents don't think there is a problem and aren't pushing it....

The best friend of the parent is in agreement with me over their complete denial of the seriousness of the situation and she doesn't know how to deal with it (her son is also getting hurt and also has SEN needs. She has been trying to gently stress how she needs to be proactive and recognise and accept the level the issue has reached and how much its affecting others.

The whole issue here is the dispute between the parents, the school and the local authority and there not being a resolution. And this is why he's falling through the cracks in the system.

In complaining it seems to have strengthened the school's hand and forced the issue because they can make a stronger case about how other children are being harmed in various ways and they have a safeguarding duty.

The parents think their child is within normal parameters just driving them insane. None of the other parents have been willing to confront them as they are particularly pushy and Mum is very very defensive. Everyone is being overly polite and 'being kind' and its helping precisely no one because the issue has effectively been swept under the carpet for much longer than it should have been.

The irony is our concerns completely mirror the suspected diagnosis (which we didn't know when we put in the complaint and Mum has since told me). Mum was in shock when school called her in over it and they said that other agencies will need to be involved because its got to this point.

Its all really sad. The school get it, but are trying to manage the situation around privacy issues and safeguarding all parties whilst having their hands tied. We get its a case of playing the system and ensuring everything is documented to protect our child and others in the class and to get the right support for this kid BEFORE we get to the point where there is a major inicident and he's kicked out. Cos thats not in the interests of this kid nor the other kids / staff that will be affected if it does get to that stage.

Management rather than going until you reach crisis point is what should be happening. The school can't manage the situation without other parties working WITH them. And I suspect this is similar to a lot of other situation - parents, school and authorities not being aligned with a common goal / agenda which leads to kids falling through the cracks in the system.

No, I haven’t missed the point. I’m well aware there are many parents who want to remain in MS, for numerous reasons, and schools, parents and LAs not agreeing, but the school could be providing more support. You yourself say there isn’t even 1:1 at break and lunchtime and seem to incorrectly be of the belief you need a diagnosis for the school to give more support - presumably that’s come from the school. If they don’t have the funding they need to approach the LA, pushing the LA for more funding doesn’t require anyone else’s involvement.

This.

School ultimately need back up to strengthen their case with the parents / authority to get this kid higher on the priority list and the parents to take the situation as seriously as they should.

We've tried to be positive in saying that we understand but there is a gap in provision thats not being properly addressed without being critical of the school.

I think the parents will eventually come round because they aren't so belligerent as others might be (and I can see why uncaring parents would be a real issue). The point is, its not entirely straightforward.

Its not like I don't have sympathy for them or their son either. I just get that in the process you have a bunch of kids who are totally innocent parties who get caught and harmed in the crossfire of it because there is this massive unnecessary stigma and reluctance to intervene firmly sooner due to lack of midway facilities which are essentially 'normal' type schools but with much lower child/adult ratios and more specialist staff rather than the more full on 'special schools'. Theres this halfway house area which got completely abolished.

The school don’t need other parents’ back up to push the LA for additional funding and not pedal the myth that a diagnosis is necessary.

@JustKeepBuilding I don't disagree with what you are saying, but do you advocate that all the teachers and other children should have to put up with the situation in the meantime, with the level of disruption to their education and fear (that may impact them long-term) that seems to be occurring, as obviously that doesn't appear to be the best outcome for anyone.

Like it or not without a diagnosis (and did that request get put in before or after the trouble at the school started) this has been going on for 3 years according to OP which is wholely unacceptable for the rest of the teachers and other pupils to have to put up with. It should not be on the other parents to try and move this forward or make their child leave the school.

You have missed the point!

I'm saying thats the point the school are at. But in the interim there isn't support and incident have happened because they've not got the funds to do this yet!!!!

Kids have been hurt because there is no slack in the system.

The school has one of the tightest budgets in the country because they get so little from government due to the funding formula. Its deemed a good school in an affluent area but the demographics weirdly work against it for exactly the same reasons because these factors have created a higher than average need for SENCO support due to a highest natural prevelance (older parents / more parents liable to be in employment where neurodiversity is more common to begin and the genetic consequences of this).

Its crappy for all concerned that you have to understand the system, and appeal to the school understanding this, and they then have to appeal to the authorities armed with this. It all takes time - time in which the kids involved are all at risk.

The parents might be shitty with us, but actually we are ultimately on their side and we don't want a vigilante response. Other parents have been a lot harsher in what they've said privately to us and we've had to calm them down and encourage them to play the game.

From what this kid has done, him bringing in a knife to school in a year or two definitely is something thats on my radar and in my concerns.

But even if we move our son I don't know that we protect him because two years of covid seems to have made cases like this all over the country be more acute and common. It would be easy to move only to find the same set of problems at another school. The system is broken to that degree and the threshold for schools to be able to force the issue of extra support is that high in cases where there is a dispute over the problem between parties.

The entire point is the cracks in the system that are glossed over and dismissed as 'minor' when they really aren't. Those cracks allow harms in the interrim before you reach the point of full exclusion or further down in the system with earlier appropriate intervention.

Third party parents SHOULD NEVER be in the position where they feel they have to step up and force the issue. It should be brought to a head and dealt with, long before it reaches that stage.

Speaking to friends who teach elsewhere the issue is widespread and they see it coming a mile off but they can't do anything until crisis point is reached in these type of cases. They get to year 5 or 6 and go boom. And its either dealt with them or festers before getting to yr 7 and it goes horribly wrong at high school very quickly indeed. The teachers aren't having their concerns taken seriously and every child is a uphill battle to get even the most basis level of appropriate support.

Its wrong. So so wrong. It has such life long consequences for all the kids.

No, I haven’t!


By your own admission this situation has been going on years, there has been time to force the LA to provide additional funding. Yes it takes time, but not this long.

Not once have I posted anyone has “to put up with the situation”, especially not for 3 years. From the school’s actions what should happen is the school should a) not pedal myths, b) provide appropriate support, c) push the LA for additional funding, d) support the parents to appeal to SENDIST and e) follow due process in order to resolve the situation - that could include following the proper process to lawfully exclude (not illegally excluding as so many do) the pupil which would provide evidence of unmet needs.

I know the back log on assessments is dreadful. Given that an Autism / ADHD assessment before they will start to go formal is two terms long in our area and needs the parents to be on board to an extent to fill out the forms required covid has driven a bus through things.

DS's year group had one term in Reception and then they lost most of Year 1 too in the chaos. It was the start of Yr2 before things started to get on track. My son's class had a teacher who went on maternity leave and they had loads of supply teachers in whilst they found cover. Then the cover was a newly qualified teacher.

And you have the parents who haven't been on board with the process to begin with and have been saying its because their son is the youngest in the year and he was born prematurely and 'its cos of covid', everything has been delayed massively.

The school have to be able to PROVE their case with SOMETHING to the LA.

We are now into yr3. Realistically under normal conditions I think it would have been the back end of year 1 things would have got sorted. Friend who works at the school says they are having massive delays with a number of kids who really should have had support from the LA by now but haven't. I know one kid in the class who has been assessed for 3 years and has been told they need x amount of hours 1 to 1 but its still not finalised - his parents are proactive and pushy and fully onboard. They are happy with the school and how much they've tried to get it through - the fault lies with the LA not the school.

We are now ourselves in the system, and tbh, I'm less than impressed. The whole system is the biggest load of bollocks on the planet in terms of box ticking nonsense.

I would remove my children from the school because the staff are failing to protect other pupils in keeping this child in the school. I know a pupil at DC’s primary was removed after kicking the headteacher in the stomach so it doesn’t always take much.

YES COS FUCKING COVID AND THE LA DOING BUGGER ALL AND THE PARENTS FIGHTING WITH THE SCHOOL AND GOING OVER THEIR HEAD TO THE LA BECAUSE THEY ARE PUSHY MIDDLE CLASS FUCKWITS WHO DON'T WANT TO ADMIT THEIR CHILD IS FUCKING DANGEROUS AND MANIPULATIVE AND CONTROLLING. (IN NO SMALL PART BECAUSE MUM QUITE CLEARLY HAS A SIMILAR LESS PROFOUND PROBLEM WITH EMPATHY!).

Assessments for ADHD/ASD are long but that has nothing to do with providing support in schools.

The school have to be able to PROVE their case with SOMETHING to the LA.

So they should follow the correct procedure in order to provide evidence of unmet needs. That doesn’t necessarily have to have the parents onboard nor complaints from other parents.


the school says they are having massive delays with a number of kids who really should have had support from the LA by now but haven't.

I know one kid in the class who has been assessed for 3 years and has been told they need x amount of hours 1 to 1 but its still not finalised

This is the LA acting unlawfully, the parents not understanding the system and schools not correctly advising/signposting. EHCPs are governed by statutory timescales. EHCPs must be finalised by week 20 and parents (supported by schools and other agencies/charities if necessary) can force the matter. Statutory timescales were only relaxed for a short period during that time and is no excuse.

I swear to god you are out to score point that actually listen to a bloody word.

In this the one thing I wanted was to be LISTENED TO. Not lectured.

You are lecturing not listening.

School are fine. LA are not. You are not.

You are exactly the type of person who the other parent is like.

The one thats made life a nightmare for everyone else.

I’m not out to score points, I’m not a nightmare and pointing out incorrect information about the system and how to navigate it isn’t lecturing. I have supported many IRL and on MN to secure support for their DC, if you don’t know the system, what should be provided and when, and how to enforce rights then you can’t successfully navigate the system. Sadly DC whose parents know the system and can enforce their rights get better support, it shouldn’t be that way but it isn’t going to change any time soon.

Ignore it if you want but others reading might read you posting more support can’t be given because there isn’t a diagnosis and believe it so it’s important to correct it. Same goes for assessments not being finalised for 3 years so it’s important to post there are statutory timescales that parents can enforce.

School could clearly being doing more, even if that is just advising parents better. Saying that doesn’t mean the LA couldn’t also do more, because they can.

Honestly I’d be moving schools. This problem isn’t going to go away. I can’t imagine much learning is happening either.

If they are endangering and injuring other people they will definitely meet the criteria for exclusion. They would at my school, just double checked our behaviour policy

I accept a child can have identified SEN without a formal diagnosis, but it is not clear if that is the case here.

A child does not have SEN/additional needs simply because their parent says so.

BTW, teachers also have a right to be and feel safe at work- the rights of children do not actually override this, as much as some parents feel they do.

Tbf, some (many) school
leaders pay little attention to how safe school staff feel at work - teachers and (especially) 1:1 support staff in primaries in particular are often subject to physical and verbal attacks but ‘they’re just children’ so staff are expected to shrug it off.

It is clear here. I didn’t say a pupil has SEN just because the parents say so. However, a pupil does have SEN when they are displaying such extreme behaviour as described here. SEMH needs are a type of SEN in their own right.