How disruptive does a child have to be to be removed from Primary School?!

[Juggletits]

Ongoing saga at our primary school. One child has been hugely disruptive since day one - attacking other children (stabbing with pencils, stamping on chests, stomach punches, facial damage with nails or sports equipment amongst many others), attacking teachers, throwing chairs, upending tables and regularly trying to escape.

Last term they brought a pocket knife in to school and showed it to other children, cut his own trousers and threatened other children that he "could stab them"

There is an ever growing list of assaults and incidents against many children and the parent community is absolutely baffled as to why the child has not been removed. They clearly need serious and ongoing support and our school is not set up for a child with such a level of additional needs.

The reason from the HT is that "certain thresholds haven't been met"

Does anyone know what these thresholds are from a legal/professional point of view?

It has reached the point that parents are keeping their children out of school because they are not safe in the classroom.

Multiple emails have been sent to the school, Academy Trust, Ofsted and MARU

What more can be done? An entire school is being disrupted by one child - this cannot be right?!

Then your LA is a unicorn. That is in no way typical

No it’s not. Via MN and IRL I have supported many parents across the country to secure EHCPs and to also secure cover for break and lunchtime.

I can think of 2 children at my school who have a full days funding and that isn’t meaning a second 1:1. It’s another TA drafted in to cover

That doesn’t mean it is the same in other schools or that it can’t happen. Their EHCPs must not be detailed, specified and quantified &/or your school don’t know, as many don’t, EHCPs can be fully funded.

Sounds exactly like the village primary and nothing was ever done.

No one can say.

We do not know staffing levels, the child's needs, language, understanding, triggers, if others are involved, what has been tried, what is working, they may be making small steps, what options there are, what funding and support is in place, what any reports say and if they are a risk to others or not. There is no set threshold it depends on the child, school skills etc. If they are able to control their behaviour in some lessons but not others. Is their behaviour management up to par. Are their gaps in their record keeping. Are they multi disadvantaged. At risk from others and very vulnerable. Only the school have the full picture.

My school is the same as @Emily3325.
We cannot get enough staff so existing staff are used to cover breaks and lunches. It's an ongoing logistical and timetabling nightmare.

If the pupils in your school with EHCPs aren’t fully funded s.F must not be detailed, specified and quantified &/or the school haven’t forced the LA to fully fund. And if there’s not 1:1 for break and lunch written in to F it can be pursued.

If the EHCP is fully funded but the school can’t fill the 1:1 post(s) with the funding they have they can force the LA to fund the position(s) at a higher rate. I have helped several parents across different LAs force their LA to fund at a higher rate, including one at the level of the teaching MPS. Every time it has resulted in an appropriate appointment. DS3’s 1:1s are funded at HLTA level, not because they couldn’t appoint but because of the provision they need to support/provide and the experience/training/qualifications in his EHCP.

My teacher friends all report same as @Emily3325. Never seen a second TA; getting one that’s prepared to accept any kind of wage to be persistently assaulted is hard enough. I know I’m going to get more responses about EHCPs now but it isn’t always possible to recruit to do this job. It just isn’t.

The LA have to pay whatever it takes if the provision is specified and quantified in s.F. I have never come across a school unable to recruit if the funding is increased to the right level.

Having break and lunch covered in s.F isn’t rare. If you search MN you will see other posters mentioning it in their posts on previous threads.

It may not be rare but it isn't my experience. My life would be much easier if it were.

Why don’t you support the parents whose DC need it to pursue lunch and break provision in s.F, via appeal if necessary? As it can and it is possible.

I'll add it to my list.

It would make your life easier in the long run. Even if you just mentioned to parents it is possible at their next AR and signposted them to charities and services who can support them further.

What charities and services?

Every EHCP we are granted, after the 20+ hours of compiling paperwork, is crap. We have to fight to even get them and can't spend every second of our lives fighting with the LA. If someone else could do it for us, that would be great.

I mentioned that I am not only the mother of an autistic child, but I have worked as a TA supporting a child with ASD, that is with different children. I am referring to my own experience.

Children with ASD are not challenging for all of the time, as a rule. It was , indeed, quite relaxing down time' for me to sit while the children listened to the assembly, because my charges were not difficult, at all times. I would keep my eyes trained on them, but often no response was needed. And this is the nature of the job: there are times of being very active and times when it is more about being attentive, but allowing the child to explore, in their learning.

This is getting silly, because many people apply to work as TAs, in many areas, and the job is not unrelenting misery. Nor would the presentations of ASD have changed across the population, since I worked in schools as an LSA. It can't be the case that children who display challenging behaviour are in crisis, continuously, now in 2023, when they were not when I last worked in school.

. Children with ASD do sit quietly, for some of the time. As a TA, you will be skilled and experienced, and there will be periods of down time, relatively speaking. Relative that is, to other jobs, such as working in a small supermarket or a cafe, where you would be constantly serving or arranging stock, and constantly on the go. . That is the nature of the caring role, that there are times of intense activity and times when your input is not required, on a minute to minute basis.

It is possible, that more children with SEN are being taught in mainstream than previously. But, I think management and knowing how to support learners is important, wherever children are taught.. In my son's special school, there were challenges, but the staff, by and large enjoyed working there, and if they didn't, it had more to do with the management style, than the behaviour of the children. Staff had been working in that setting for more than 20 years. They felt that they belonged to a team and that they had support from colleagues. They were suited to the work. Some of them had children or nephews with ASD, and so they knew what to expect and had understanding.

Of course staff rotate. That would be good practice.

In your place if work, do you really say: 'This child is violent'? Do you not express it: 'This child may display behaviour which challenges?' Much has changed, perhaps.

I listed some in one of my pp, in case you missed them and more - IPSEA, SOSSEN, NAS, Contact, Support SEND kids, NFIS, Parents in Need… SENDIASS and local parent carer services if your LA’s are any good. More informally there are numerous Facebook pages and MN SN boards are helpful. Also, informing parents Legal Aid is available for those who qualify.

Many EHCPs are initially not worth the paper they are written on. This is why it’s important parents are supported to appeal. Same goes for refusals to assess and refusals to issue.

I didn’t say you had to spend every second of your live fighting with the LA.

When I worked in a primary school as a 1:1 support worker, there would be children who joined the school and who would hit out at staff and kick, but their behaviour completely calmed down, after a while, thanks to the effectiveness of the strategies being used, and, often they achieved good things, afterwards. A couple I remember, who were difficult, started mainstream secondary school, and got themselves there, independently, and by the bus. I think that often schools can ameliorate behaviour. That is when there is some outreach support.

Many EHCPs are initially not worth the paper they are written on. This is why it’s important parents are supported to appeal. Same goes for refusals to assess and refusals to issue.

This assumes that the parents are willing and capable to fight for an EHCP. This is far from the case everywhere. You sound extremely knowledgeable and pro-actice but, believe me, there are many parents out there who either don't want the hassle, don't see the point or can't see the importance, no matter how hard you work to support them with the process. Some parents actively don't want an EHCP as they see it as labelling. They just assume the school will magically deal with their child.

Having supported many (at least a few hundred) parents through the process over the years I am more than aware for many reasons some parents struggle to appeal, which is why I said they should be supported. In my experience the majority of parents who to the outside world don’t seem to want to appeal are scared, unsure of how to, have poor MH/SEN of their own, or don’t think they can do it and instead of going into their reasons state they don’t want to. The right support can overcome this 99% of the time. That’s not to say it’s easy or the first kind of support is the right one for that particular family.

I am aware a minority of parents don’t want an EHCP, but I was discussing those who have applied/already have one.

Things have changed massively in the last few years. Massively. My experiences of school 20 years ago mirror yours.

Staff working with children who require a 1:1 need to know the reality of what life will be like. There's no point pretending otherwise. We've had so many problems when the staff have joined to work with a child and it be much harder than they envisaged.

I don't say you did, or think you did, want me to spend every second of my life fighting with the LA, and I apologies if it came across like that.

The reality of my school currently is that 25 families aren't even receiving what they are legally entitled to. I have to prioritize this and am probably flagged as a trouble maker for it. I have signposted these families to local support but none of them have had a change in outcome because of it. I will try signposting to different agencies too as I know you're right - most want what their child needs, they just don't feel confident in getting it.

I see the work you do to support parents on here - you're an amazing advocate - and wish that some of our parents could take advantage so we didn't feel we were failing their children. The parent of the child in the OP might be similar, and just accepts that their child won't get the support they need. I wish the system just listened the first time...

@solidaritea I wish the system was different too. DC whose parents know the system, can advocate and enforce their rights get better support. It shouldn’t be like that, but it isn’t going to change any time soon, sadly.

Local support varies considerably from helpful to harmful. Some areas have a local independent organisation with a better reputation, it’s worth seeing whether you do. For example, in my LA SENDIASS and the parent carer service are in the LA’s pocket, but there is a much better truly independent service. For full disclosure I work a few hours a week for them.

Enforcing provision specified and quantified in F (presumably it is as you say legally entitled) is one of the most straightforward to help with. Not easy, but straightforward.

In the first instance send the Director of Children’s Services this IPSEA model letter. I amend the second to last paragraph to explicitly state if the provision isn’t provided you (when written from the perspective of the parents)/the parents will be forced to pursue judicial review proceedings (I do this as the mere mention of JR often means the LA listen) and remove the section about contacting the complaints department as SOSSEN advise, in most cases, not to go down the complaints route as it acknowledges there’s an alternative remedy to JR. If possible it is best if you can get it to come from the parents as the LA are more likely to take the threat of JR seriously.

If that doesn’t work don’t get drawn into going back and forth. It rarely works and isn’t up for discussion. The LA need to see you/the parents are serious about enforcing rights as this is when they often concede. Direct parents to SOSSEN for help with a pre-action letter. This mostly works, only a minority actually get to a hearing. Apologies if you already know this.

I understand the above might not go down well with the powers that be in your school as they may be named in any proceedings e.g. as an interested party, and, depending on specifics, the school not following the EHCP could result in parents pursuing a disability discrimination case, but in the long run it will make everyone’s life easier.

BTW I know what it is like for the LA to be fed up of you for not allowing them to act unlawfully. It has advantages, with my own 2 with EHCPs and if I’m supporting another parent they know I know the law and won’t be fobbed off. On the other hand DS3’s school (DS1 has EOTAS) love me as his EHCP is excellent and fully funded and I have helped/am helping others get the same.

That’s shocking. Don’t really have any advice but hope you find a solution.

You’re living on a different planet, there are no second 1:1s there just aren’t.

DD1 was in a specialist school, in a class of 6 students with a teacher and two TAs. The LA funded her for 1:1 support in class, in addition to the three adults already there, as per the Tribunal decision. Admittedly not because of her behaviour; but to keep her focused on the task in hand. It all cost six figures; but the Tribunal’s attitude was that was the only way to meet her SEN, so the cost was irrelevant.