How disruptive does a child have to be to be removed from Primary School?!

[Juggletits]

Ongoing saga at our primary school. One child has been hugely disruptive since day one - attacking other children (stabbing with pencils, stamping on chests, stomach punches, facial damage with nails or sports equipment amongst many others), attacking teachers, throwing chairs, upending tables and regularly trying to escape.

Last term they brought a pocket knife in to school and showed it to other children, cut his own trousers and threatened other children that he "could stab them"

There is an ever growing list of assaults and incidents against many children and the parent community is absolutely baffled as to why the child has not been removed. They clearly need serious and ongoing support and our school is not set up for a child with such a level of additional needs.

The reason from the HT is that "certain thresholds haven't been met"

Does anyone know what these thresholds are from a legal/professional point of view?

It has reached the point that parents are keeping their children out of school because they are not safe in the classroom.

Multiple emails have been sent to the school, Academy Trust, Ofsted and MARU

What more can be done? An entire school is being disrupted by one child - this cannot be right?!

My son had a TA who supported him the majority of the day and a second TA who covered the first hour of the afternoon so that his TA could have lunchtime. It worked well because if his TA was ever off unwell or had an appointment the second TA would cover so it wasn't somebody unfamilliar.
My dd's EHCP came with £46k costed provision after SENDIST, LA were responsible for funding the whole lot.
IME schools are usually schooled in LA policy whereas the law is very different and what should be done and what is done is very different. Schools can help by pointing parents in the direction of IPSEA and SOSSEN.

This is a specialist school not a mainstream primary barely meeting staffing levels

From the PoV of provision specified and quantified in F and funding it is irrelevant whether the pupil is in MS or SS. The provision must be provided regardless of what is normally done, it can be fully funded and the LA must fund it to a level where it can be delivered.

1:1 is actually less common in SS due to the whole environment being better suited for their pupils.

IME schools are usually schooled in LA policy whereas the law is very different and what should be done and what is done is very different.

I completely agree. You only have to look at how many schools perpetuate the myths about needing to have a diagnosis, be 2+ years behind, already having £6k spent on them, 2 cycles of assess/plan/do/review… in order to get an EHCNA.

This is a specialist school not a mainstream primary barely meeting staffing levels

Nobody gave it to us on a plate; and they had continual staffing problems due to being in the countryside, in a very expensive area.

If it’s specified in the EHCP, then it has to be provided - although if any child needed that kind of support, I would be wondering why they were in mainstream. However, if all the local specialist provision were full, and the parents did not have the resources to take it to tribunal to argue, the presence of one more did not affect the efficient education of the rest; then such a child could remain in mainstream, I guess, at least at primary.

although if any child needed that kind of support, I would be wondering why they were in mainstream.

Do you mean if the child needs 1:1 or 1:1 and 2 other TAs in the classroom?

DS3 is thriving in MS secondary with full time 1:1 and multiple therapies and other interventions. SS isn’t the right place for him. Although he is only thriving because of his watertight EHCP. He isn’t the only one for whom MS with support is the best option to meet their needs.

Exactly neither ds nor dd were ever behind academically and both had their SSEN/EHCP in place before they started nursery. Was much easier to secure when schools weren't involved.
The EHCP with costed provision of £46k was the one I appealed on SSEN to EHCP transfer had band 1 funding. The school had no idea they were being shafted by the LA and would have in turn shafted my dd as they couldn't have made the provision on the miserable funding LA proposed.

My username pretty much says where I am coming from.

I was in that position. My child was the 'violent' child in a mainstream school. Although I said to the headteacher I didn't want to know, I know there were complaints and a petition about my child. However what the parents didn't know was that my child has a great long list of diagnoses and I had unsuccessfully been trying to persuade the LA that my child needed a special school for the past 2 and a half years. Amongst my child's great long list was the fact that they had absolutely no understanding whatsoever of the co sequences of their actions. The sort of school my child needed was very few and very far between. Almost all of the schools (SEMH specialist) are run by independent providers. They are also very, very expensive so in almost all circumstances, you'll ride up the street on your pet unicorn before you get a place in one of them. It's MUCH cheaper to keep a child in mainstream with 1-1

My husband and I used to call the school run the walk of shame for very good reasons. When your child is public enemy no1 it's absolutely soul destroying to have to do the school run twice a day knowing that everyone else on the playground hates you. For the posters who have suggested confronting the parent, dont do this. The parent is probably well aware of her child's difficulties already. Having to face irate parents in the playground demanding 'you sort the problem out' doesn't help anyone and is incredibly upsetting. In my case, one parent was spoken to by the police after they threatened violence.

Instead focus on what you CAN do to help. Petitions, evidence logs and the like make it look like you are doing something. You are almost certainly making a difficult situation worse. The school will be well aware of what is happening and will have their own internal log of events. Ask the local authority why SEND provision is so dreadful. Nag central government to actually properly fund children's education. Get information put in the next newsletter about where you can go if you need help because battling a system that's rotten to the core is damned hard work. Why not ask the parent directly if she is OK because chances are she won't be.

SEND education is absolutely dreadful. The system isn't fit for purpose, meets no-ones needs and is woefully underfunded. Although my child is now in a SEMH specialist school it took one hell of a battle to get there. Getting them in the school has left me broken, has hugely affected my health and my career went down the toilet a long time ago when I was forced to give up my job.

Do you mean if the child needs 1:1 or 1:1 and 2 other TAs in the classroom?

I meant 2:1. I have known countless parents, with a DC with SEN with 1:1 in mainstream.

@Quisquam Me too. I just wasn’t sure what you meant.

@hiredandsqueak last week I heard a brilliant excuse. “We can’t apply for an EHCNA because X has been deferred.” X is a non-verbal child with GDD who should have had an EHCP long before now. That was a new one on me.

Tbf I have been astounded at times by how little schools know. LA's ensure they are kept in the dark because it's another way to ration resources. It does make for tricky relationships though when a parent is well informed. I have noticed an influx of SENCos asking questions on parent support boards recently so maybe the worms are turning.

There have been exclusions where a child has brought in the wrong bag, a fishing knife, a plastic knife, nail scissors, their dads Swiss army knife. None were brought in for any violent reasons but were initially recorded as knife incidents. There is often background info that completely changes the child's reasoning. We have several high level 4 EHCPs and only get about 12k for full time provision.

@cabbageking parents should be encouraged to appeal to Tribunal to get EHCPs that are specified and quantified so that the school gets adequate fund in g to meet the provision. Just knowing that it's a level 4 EHCP tells me that it's most likely not specified or quantified and the provision can't be costed because the LA have just assigned a band to it.
I went to Tribunal after the SSEN to EHCP transfer left my dd with an EHCP not worth the paper it was written on with Band 1 funding. I think that was about £1500.
Following Tribunal with a specified and quantised EHCP costed provision was £46k the LA were responsible for funding the lot. This was mainstream secondary school.