To think the NHS has already failed.

[Goingforplatinum]

5 hour wait for a cat1 ambulance for a child. Unresponsive patients being taken to hospital by neighbours. 90 hour wait in A&E, unsafe staffing on wards, 7 month wait for coil or implant fitting. The NHS isn't failing. We need to admit its failed

Of course there will be some in that situation, but they’re very likely to have made huge property gains by virtue of being alive at the right time. If they’re solely living on the state pension, what they were doing for their 40 working years?! (Obviously excepting the disabled)

Actually, one of the main reasons that councils close things is that they've come to the end of their lives, whether it's care homes, or even things like swimming pools, etc. Councils are notoriously bad at routine maintenance, so problems get worse, are just "patched over" and ultimately closure is inevitable as the cost of remediation is just too high as the problems are too bad.

Same with the NHS and the older style small hospital, convalescent homes, etc. They've basically come to the end of their lives, often riddled with woodworm, dry rot, wet rot, built with asbestos, water and electrical systems antiquated etc.

You can't keep old, end of life, buildings forever. At some point they need total refurb, and that's very expensive, often more expensive than building new.

@Cuppasoupmonster Do you just sit on MN ALL DAY AND NIGHT seeking out threads that give you an opportunity to bash the elderly? Just hideous, hideous ageism and uninformed to boot.

Perhaps GPs need to grow some balls and tell such patients that they're wasting time and direct them to alternative services instead?

Of course not! But there’s an awful lot of NHS/economy threads on MN at the moment and to me, this is one of the main issues that goes unspoken about. I have nothing against the elderly as individuals whatsoever. Equally I believe in similar ‘personal responsibility’ drives for people of all ages.

Yep. A frank ‘you should’ve gone to the pharmacy, please head there now so I can free up this appointment’ might have been in order

I agree the NHS has already failed. My local hospital issued a “do not come here” statement last week. The waiting room already contained the number of patients they could see in the next 24 hours, so they locked the doors to prevent any more people coming inside. People started to queue in the car park. Not to be seen by a doctor - merely to get inside to join the queue to be seen by a doctor. People were getting very angry and scared “my wife can’t breathe and you need to open the doors and let us in” etc. The hospital had to put security staff on the door to prevent desperate people forcing their way in.

Interesting article on the guardian

I think it said that the uk spends about £650 a year less per person on its health system than the eu average

In Germany there is a 3% income tax for social care services

It's not just money but money clearly helps

We need MORE beds - It's a balance though. Modern treatments means acute and surgery beds are now only used for one or two days, rather than 2 weeks. Acute and surgical beds in hospitals are probably at the right number, for the number of staff we have (bearing in mind international shortage of nurses). Where we do need more beds, and this has to be repeated until we are blue in the face, is in the community. Community hospitals, rehab beds, mental health beds, remote "ward" beds in peoples own homes. "Beds" shouldn't be seen only in acute hospital terms. The elephant in the room, of course, is that they still need staff, but personally I think that we should be concentrating on community nursing and community care staff more than hospital staff.

She really can't help herself, it seems. Every chance to post something derogatory and unpleasant about the elderly, and she's there.

Slightly off topic, but interesting article in the Telegraph today highlighting similar issues in Italy, Sweden, Portugal..... www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/08/not-just-nhs-health-services-imploding-europe/

The guardian article observes that all are struggling but Britain is struggling by far the most

What is derogatory, untrue or unpleasant about sharing the view that the wealthiest demographic in the country should shoulder some of the burden? Do tell.

We do need more beds but we also need to be using them properly. A third of beds in some trusts are taken up by people who don’t need to be there. To me it isn’t just about care packages after, it’s how they got there in the first place - an awful lot of them due to falls, broken bones etc (this is what happened with my grandparents. Granddad broke his leg, grandma ended up in hospital with him as a ‘social patient’ bed blocking for over 3 weeks because she wasn’t safe to be left home without him. Despite me trying to persuade them for years beforehand to live in a proper 24/7 care facility, but that’s a different story!).

For a start you are assuming that all that demographic is wealthy. For a second, despite being asked, you never seem to manage to define exactly what you mean by 'wealthy.' For a third, that demographic is shouldering some of the burden - pensioners pay tax in the same way the employed do. For a fourth, what you mean is you want them to shoulder a disproportionate share of the burden because they are older and by definition as you get older you need more medical care.

HTH

Where did I say ‘they are all wealthy’? I have never once said that. It is true that pensioners are the wealthiest demographic in this country, whether you agree or not. They’re also the biggest users of the NHS, and therefore I fail to see why expecting them to contribute to their own social (not emergency or medical) care is such an outrageous thing to say. Not only would it save the taxpayer some much needed cash, it would prevent them falling over and ending up in A&E as much as they do, freeing up beds and relieving the pressure on everyone.

’HTH’

But the wealthy pensioners are probably not the ones needing the most nhs treatment ( not least because pensioner wealth decreases with age )

Surely it's unfair to bung the healthy and unhealthy ones together ?

As soon as you try to segregate based on characteristics you get into a situation where ever more refinement of the characteristics seems reasonable till its everyone for themselves law of the jungle which as evidenced by the US isn't a good system

Perhaps GPs need to grow some balls and tell such patients that they're wasting time and direct them to alternative services instead?

I completely agree. And I'm not averse to bringing in a charge to see a GP either. It would make people think twice about booking an appt.
It would have to be carefully thought through so that people who really need a GP but who are low income would still have access, and maybe a low priority service staffed by nurses/nurse practitioners/pharmacists as a triaging point (stand alone rather than part of a surgery as now).
You only have to watch GPS Behind Closed Doors to see how many people use the GP at the first sign of a runny nose.

And on average because they are older they have already paid more than young people have paid

I begin to think a small GP charge is necessary - for those on benefits refundable in most cases

From working in the hospital at the moment, the biggest area in crisis is the emergency department. To attempt to solve this we have divided up the department.

We have portacabins outside the main doors being used as GP spaces for patients that can be seen and discharged with a prescription quickly.

Adults have taken over children, the children's assessment unit has closed and children's a&e is now there in a bigger department with more staff to try and see them quickly.

We have various assessment units GPs can direct patients to cutting out a&e. We have a specialist decision unit, a frail decision unit, plus the medical and surgical that have been around for a while. All the direct patients to be seen by the correct department faster.

However, we still have the patients coming in with ear wax (actually happened over the busiest period), with their kids that literally need a dose of calpol, with people who could go to a pharmacy, or repeat visitors that need a MH assessment that A&E cant offer. We have over 300 patients currently with covid or the flu, but the amount coming into to a&e is far far higher and most don't require treatment. Plus the ever-growing number of vacancies and staff shortages. A&E departments just cant run effectively understaffed and overused by the growing population.

The nhs needs a complete overhaul. Why do we still need a prescription from a doctor for basic antibiotics when you can walk into just about any pharmacy in Europe and buy them over the counter? Why do doctors give prescriptions for anything that can be bought cheaper over the counter things like aspirin or nit lotion?

My mum is a care worker and my gran over the years has been an ‘unofficial’ carer for lots of elderly people (befriended through church, her own mum died young so we think some kind of replacement mother figure type thing, but anyhow). Both have seen elderly people in huge, unsuitable properties who refuse to pay for the level of care they clearly need and would rather fall every few weeks and end up in A&E. If anything the wealthier they are the more reluctant they seem to part with any of their cash. One of my mum’s clients lived in a large flat (converted stately home) and every time the paramedics arrived he couldn’t remember the code for the main door so they would have to smash the glass to get in. It drove the other residents mad.

Grandma is a very Christian, socialist woman but she could rant about this all day! As could my mum.

Not true either. They’re much more likely to have retired in their 50s or early 60s, so their ‘working life’ has been something like 30-35 years in many cases, not the 45-50 years we are facing. Plus only half of women in the 1970s worked. Some never went back at all after having children, or only part time.

Are kids being seen more quickly tho? My (& imagine most parents) concern isn't the elderly on trollies in the corridor it's the danger of missing something in the young.